1. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,359

    Grammar check: Proponent

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by SapereAude, Oct 30, 2021.

    From an article in the New York Times:

    I thought the correct usage was "proponent of." Have I been doing it wrong for 70+ years?
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
    petra4, Also and Xoic like this.
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    “Proponent of” is the better usage, in my opinion.
     
    Also likes this.
  3. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2021
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    960
    I've always used "proponent of". A quick Google check shows that "proponent of" gets 20 million hits while "proponent for" only gets about a million but that doesn't necessarily prove either is right or wrong.

    Proponent is a noun without a clear verb form (is propone a word?) whereas advocate can be both, so "an advocate for" returns much more than "an advocate of" even though it's used as a noun in both instances. I don't know if this helps answer the question though.

    Edit: propone is a word, but I don't think I've ever heard or read it.
     
    petra4, Also and evild4ve like this.
  4. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2021
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    Proponent "of" is overwhelmingly more common, but a small number of proponent "fors" have been slipping through the net since the 1960s.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=proponed,proponent+of,proponent+for&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1;,proponed;,c0;.t1;,proponent of;,c0;.t1;,proponent for;,c0

    Also in that particular example, if it was going to follow the pattern of "advocate of"/"advocate for", it feels to me like something as abstract as "fire defence" should take the of rather than the for.

    But incorrect, that always feels sweeping to me for a marked usage that's equally comprehensible, and when I'm only in contact with a few dialects of English.

    In this case it's a loan-word that took the accusative in its original language (e.g. proponere rem gestam) and has (I'm guessing now) only been turned into a noun inside the adopting language by its own artificial convention of sticking -nt on the end of Latinisms to make them sound like a participle*. "To propone" seems to have been used in English-language legal texts until the late 1800s, and occasionally things were proponed by a "proponer". E.g.:- "and the proponer of the exception would give his oath". That sounds nicer to my ear than proponent, but it also shows (imo) how much the core meaning of the verb is shifting in English (I mean, legal exceptions used to have proponers, but now fire defences have proponents), and when things shift so quickly who can distinguish which mutant usages will survive.

    * - what I'm guessing is that this participle becomes common in English-speakers' Latin and wasn't seen in classical Latin. I only did a quick search on the Perseus Project though and am ready to stand corrected. "Proponent" feels to me like a participle-for-noun that is now really just a noun
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
    petra4, Also and Bruce Johnson like this.
  5. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    Yes, I considered "advocate." But that conflates two different uses. In the former, an "advocate of" refers to a person who supports and promotes something. It's a noun. I the latter, "advocate for" is the verb form, meaning "to support or argue for (a cause, policy, etc.)" or "to plead in favor of ."
     
    evild4ve likes this.
  6. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    A thought—an opponent doesn't oppone, they oppose. So maybe the verb form of proponent is to propose? I thought it was ridiculous until I wrote it and suddenly it makes perfect sense. Of course, a proponent of an idea proposes that he believes the idea is true. Right?

    Right?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2021
    Also likes this.
  7. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Followup thought... so, if someone supposes something, does that make them a supponent? :wtf: :dead:

    Maybe a suppository? :bigcool:
     
  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    It's coming together now. The root word is pose, or position. A proponent proposes or makes a proposition, an opponent opposes or stands in opposition. I suppose supposition fits, but there doesn't seem to be a supponent form in use today, if ever. There's also a preposition. But that doesn't seem to fit with the rest either. I've never heard of anyone preposing something, or being a preponent. But then a preposition is a part of speech and probably from a different root word. Or is it? Would it make sense to say that a preposition pre-positions itself in any way?
     
  9. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    1. prē-pō˙-zish′ on). The act of preposing, or placing before or in front of something else.
    2. In grammar, something preposed; a prefixed element; a prefix;
    Well damn!! I love it when a weird idea comes together.
     
  10. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    So it's all about 'taking a position' on a topic. You can be a proponent or an opponent. A preposition takes up a position in front of something. I'm not sure how supposition fits in though. It's taking the position of thinking about something? Maybe the original meaning is a little different. Ok, now I need to root around in the etymological cellar again... hold on...

    suppose (v.)
    early 14c., "to assume as the basis of argument," from Old French suposer "to assume" (13c.), probably a replacement (influenced by Old French poser "put, place") of *suppondre, from Latin supponere "put or place under; to subordinate, make subject," from assimilated form of sub "under" (see sub-) + ponere "put, place" (past participle positus; see position (n.)). Meaning "to admit as possible, to believe to be true" is from 1520s.

    Note the mention of 'subordinate'. And listed right under this heading are related words, the first one being Sub, meaning under. So to suppose was originally more like to subpose, or to stand under. Not to be confused with understanding. Rather to position yourself under the idea I think.
     
  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Or maybe to position an idea under something, like a foundation for the argument. As in "to assume as the basis of argument". A basis or a base is essentially a foundation.

    By George, I think I've got it!

    So it's either to position yourself in relation to an idea (propose or oppose) or to place something in a particular position (preposition, supposition).

    Similar terms would be transpose, expose, dispose, and I'm sure there are many others.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2021
  12. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2021
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    Oppone and opponer also fall out of use in the mid 1800s.
    "I know you both a man of learning and modesty; but that ye shall oppone yourself in the truth whereof I suppose your own conscience is no less persuaded than is mine"
    "hee wissend ytte bettre noghte toe bee an Opponer"

    This is to do with how the Latin verb's indicative and participle forms mapped across into English

    An opponent is opposite us and opposes, in opposition.

    I suppose it's possible we mistook the root verb for opposere when the Latin was opponere.

    The schools of thought who like to regulate and standardize language, and tell us that "wissend ytte bettre" is primitive (when it was clearly more advanced :)), might say English follows a beautiful logic in how it maps Latin onto English. But if we compare back to propose:-

    An opponent is opposite us and opposes, in opposition.
    A proponent is proposite us and proposes in a proposition.

    What's more, these examples are in flux
    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+proponent+proposes,+the+proposer+proposes,+the+opponent+opposes,+the+opposer+opposes&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1;,the proponent proposes;,c0;.t1;,the proposer proposes;,c0;.t1;,the opponent opposes;,c0
     
    Also likes this.
  13. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    I love when I'm able to figure out how the modern English works by thinking through it like I did above. It's sort of a hobby of mine to do this, and often it reveals things that aren't directly stated in any of the definitions or etymologies. You have to wrangle it—finagle it until the connections become clear and the meaning emerges.

    It all happened because I asked myself the simple question—are there any other words similar to proponent? Opponent popped up and raised its hand. The rest fell into place stage by stage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2021
    AntPoems likes this.
  14. Also

    Also Student of Humanity Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2021
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    243
    Location:
    Eastern United States
    Currently Reading::
    A Separation (2017, Katie Kitamura) ; Die Sünderin (1999, Petra Hammesfahr)
    Historically, even "advocates for" was rare as a verb, and referred almost exclusively to advocating positions on behalf of the group named as object, or occasionally a person.

    "He advocates for the abolition of..." as a replacement for "He advocates the abolition of..." is one of the clearest of many millennial tics — possibly second to moving the comma from before FANBOYS conjunctions to after them — and was all but non-existent before 2000.

    NGrams "he advocated for the" versus "he advocated the"

    It's a tad less dramatic with "advocates" instead of "advocated," but still clear that it's a millennial misunderstanding gradually diluting general usage.

    And it just so happens that's my pet peeve. It sounds so downmarket.
     
  15. Also

    Also Student of Humanity Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2021
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    243
    Location:
    Eastern United States
    Currently Reading::
    A Separation (2017, Katie Kitamura) ; Die Sünderin (1999, Petra Hammesfahr)
    There's also propound. One who propounds an idea would equally be a proponent.
     
    Xoic likes this.
  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    That actually sounds more likely than propose. But oppound doesn't make any sense, nor does it seem to fit with any other words I can think of (so far anyway). Weird the way the English language works.

    There's impound, but I don't think it's the same. There's also an impose (like propose/oppose), but I don't think they're related.
     
    Also likes this.
  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,624
    Likes Received:
    13,691
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    I looked it up and apparently propound is a synonym for propose.
     
    Also likes this.
  18. Also

    Also Student of Humanity Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2021
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    243
    Location:
    Eastern United States
    Currently Reading::
    A Separation (2017, Katie Kitamura) ; Die Sünderin (1999, Petra Hammesfahr)
    Come to think of it, one who expounds is properly called an exponent.
     
    Xoic likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice