1. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Neither nor

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by OurJud, Nov 13, 2021.

    Is it always nor if you use neither?

    I suppose I could find the answer myself if I looked hard enough, but I have neither the desire nor the energy to do so.
     
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  2. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Correct.

    Neither/nor
    Either/or
     
  3. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

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    It has sometimes found its way into print, but probably these are mistakes, or it might be that the writers have used it for colloquiality.

    'Count,' answered Necker, 'that reason suits neither you or me'
    - Henry Horne, The Citizen of Nature, 1823

    "I know that in neither you or me is there any variableness, nor shadow of turning" - G. Ewart Fleming, A Different Dora, 1885

    "The Constitution nor Government have commissioned neither you or me to decide such issues"
    - (The Destruction of Slavery, Thavolia Glymph, 1985 - in a quote from 1863)

    "Scratch will not forgive," he whispered, "neither you or me"
    - The Afterlife of Trisha Bumwood, Francis De Pietro, 2000

    "it wasn't like that famous memory-jogger madeleine biccy dunked in tea that made boring old Frog writer Proust write about ten billion words of arse-aching delicate prose about his fantastically dull life, or this would be volume one in a Terry Pratchett-length sequence and frankly neither you or me need that." - I Think there's Something Wrong with me, Nigel Smith, 2008
     
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  4. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    Yes.
     
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  5. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    As long as it's paired, you're supposed to use nor.

    Neither can be a noun though. Then it sits by itself.

    Neither of Aunt Martha's cats are house-trained.
    Neither (of Aunt Martha's cats) are house-trained. (because that's a prepositional phrase, the subject is neither)​

    Neither on its own is usually singular, but if you have a preposition following it (like above) that has a plural in it, then neither becomes plural. That's always the trickiest part for me.

    I should warn you about Aunt Martha's cats. Neither is house-trained. (singular now)​

    Oh, and there's one issue with neither/nor that gets written around because nobody likes the correct grammar, and that's the multiple-nor.

    Neither rain nor sleet nor dark of night . . . (correct, though I apparently forgot the saying, haha)
    You're not supposed to use commas in there.

    Neither rain, sleet, nor dark of night . . . (wrong, sorry)
    So sometimes that gets written around when the correct version sounds too Poindexter. There are grammar rules like that where the answer sounds awful, so nobody uses the correct version. They just change the sentence.

    Edit: of course characters (and narrators) don't necessarily care about this
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  6. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Oh fun, this thread combines grammar and my favorite subject: logical algebra: If we assume that the n is a shorthand for a logical NOT function, then:

    Either => A OR B
    NOT Either => NOT(A OR B) => A NOR B


    I linked the relevant function wiki pages for fun :p
     
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  7. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Clear as mud. I hated algebra at school, so thanks for bringing back such delightful memories.
     
  8. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    While the two are usually paired, either can stand alone in a sentence.

    "Neither of those guys would be a good fit for the job. They're both idiots. Nor would I recommend Susan, because she's already got too much on her plate right now.
     
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  9. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    “Nor.. nor…” is another construction found in English, albeit rather archaic now. Likewise “Or … or”.
     
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  10. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I’ll give you ‘nor’ may sound a little archaic, but ‘or’ ?
     
  11. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    Not the word "or," but the construction "Or... or." An example, from Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur:

    Sir, she said, It will not beseem me to wear a king’s garment. By my head, said Arthur, ye shall wear it or it come on my back, or any man’s that here is.

    Here the word "or" appears in front of both options. I believe this usage is preserved in contemporary German. Nowadays in English, though, instead of the first "or," we would say "whether."
     
  12. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    We certainly do use or in a single clause, as in: "Stand to attention, or else!"
     
  13. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    Not what I'm talking about.
     
  14. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I respectfully submit that I do not think that last sentence is grammatically correct. To the extent that it may be correct, though, it's hardly an example of "nor" being used without being paired with "neither." All you have done is to separate the pairing with a short intervening sentence.
     
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  15. Also

    Also Student of Humanity Supporter

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    Do you object to the use of "nor" as a coordinating conjunction or to the use of a coordinating conjunction to begin a sentence -- or merely to the use specifically of "Nor" to do so?

    I agree that the example confuses the matter by including a "neither" that has a different meaning not paired to that "Nor" or to any other "nor."

    The example would be more useful if it were "John is not a good fit for that job. He's an idiot. Nor would I recommend Susan, because..."
     
  16. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    To be honest, I'm not sure exactly why I view that example as wrong; it just feels wrong (which is a rather poor criterion for critiquing grammar). I'd say my objection boils down to using "Nor" as a coordinating conjunction.

    I don't see your alternate as an improvement. If I were to use that, I would open the third sentence with "Neither," not with "Nor."
     
  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I've also seen very old examples of a nor/nor construction, for example "Nor rain nor snow shall stop the postman from making his appointed rounds."

    But of course, go back 200 years or so and everything was in flux—spellings and word usage were pretty much up for grabs.
     
  18. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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  19. Also

    Also Student of Humanity Supporter

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    I also believe I've read it that way, but I can't find any supporting citations. I like it better without the neither. If you accept the Nor...nor... construct at all, it imbues the quote at hand with a loftier, more ancient tone.

    Given that it's a translation / adaptation from Greek (of which I remember nothing from two semesters decades ago), the choice of "neither" to begin it in English may be somewhat arbitrary.
     
  20. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    If I may respectfully reply, the question really should be whether the two sentences, considered separately, would be good grammar...

    I think you're right about my using them in pairs. Even if I had separated them further, inserting a long passage about why those guys were idiots, and started the next passage with "Nor would I recommend Susan..." the "nor" still follows the "neither" in the sense that used alone, without the first sentence, would be very odd.

    But the first sentence could easily stand alone, I think.
     
  21. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

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    Neither... nor... comes from Old English náhwæðer... ne... which is a coordinator followed by a conjunction.
    Old English has ná... ná... as an alternative. (https://old-engli.sh/dictionary.php)
    (So it may be that the literate scop responsible for Beowulf could legitimately have asked the same question as the OP)

    The etymologies aren't traced back further than that by the dictionaries.
    And the Ancient Greek οὐδέ... οὐδέ... (or οὐκ... οὐδέ...) sounds different.
    And οὐδέ is a negative tacked onto a particle (which is subtly different from a coordinator followed by a conjunction)
    Although there is a slight choice of whether to repeat the δέ particle, Ancient Greek doesn't have a dedicated coordinator equivalent to either or neither
    So I wouldn't have thought either the words or the grammar came to English via Ancient Greek.

    Ancient Hittite had nassu... nasma...
    So I'd suggest coordinating conjunctions probably go back to Indo-European and always featured a reduplicated sound to introduce two alternatives.

    But my hunch is that at some point Proto-Germanic found it useful to develop on the Indo-European template with a way to flag up coordinating conjunctions that are going to involve entire clauses.
    If it's a choice between oats or barley, they use nor... nor..., but if it's a choice between sending a message to a friend now or fighting an enemy later they use neither... nor... with the longer, specialist word serving as a sort of warning to the listener that they might have to wait a while for the nor.

    German has weder... noch... or noch... noch...
    But French I think just has ni... ni... so it might even be that this is a distinguishing feature between Germanic and Romance languages.

    This leaves an open question whether nor... nor... is still alright in English today, but I like to think it's some evidence in favour. I'm sure I've heard something like Xoic's "nor rain nor snow" somewhere, and that would conform to the idea of nor... nor... being used for simpler substantives. By contrast perhaps "Nor could they swim the rain nor dig the snow" sounds wrong.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
  22. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    Robert Claiborne had an interesting comment on the struggle for orthography in his chapter "A Search for Order" in the book Our Marvelous Native Tongue:

     
  23. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I agree.
     
  24. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I have never encountered the Postal Service's [unofficial] credo expressed as a "nor ... nor" statement. I have always heard and seen it as "Neither ... nor."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service_creed
     
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  25. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Oh I know, that's the way I've always heard it too. I just needed an example sentence and that came to mind so I used it, but with the Nor/Nor construction.
     

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