What do you like to see from redemption Arcs? Like what makes you root for them to succeed in going heel-face. Is there times it annoys you? Is there times a character begins to heel face turn and you change your mind and are like "nope. Screw that chick. She hasn't changed enough" I bring this up cuz me and a couple buddies were chatting and someone was like. "She doesn't deserve forgiveness. She hasn't shown enough ethical changes" But someone else was like. "If she is gay and kisses this other girl. Then I might forgive her." And I was like. "wait wait wait. The ethical stuff I get. But your forgive the unethical stuff is she was gay just cuz you'd enjoy seeing that?" And I thought. Dang that's an interesting concept. I mean I guess it makes sense if forgiveness here is more emotional based. This discuss. Redemption when do you hate it and when do you love it and why?
A redemption arc goes beyond just saying, "I've changed." The character starts out doing wrong, and then makes right for their wrongdoings. It requires some redemptive behavior/action on their part that makes up for past wrongs.
They have to really go through the wringer. Somebody has to be broken down and humbled to the core before they have the means or the desire to really change at a deep level. I mean, similar to the way boot camp breaks people down so they can be rebuilt. You gotta scramble a few eggs before you can make an omlette.
I feel like the best redemption arcs foreshadow the redemption early. Small, or sometimes not so small, hints that this character can be redeemed go a long way in making the arc more believable. It also helps if the reason the character is doing bad things is due to otherwise noble traits. Like misplaced loyalty or respect for the law. Finally when it comes to redemption arcs one trope that I increasingly dislike is what I call death by redemption. Where the redemption arc ends with the character's death. It's cheap, it's easy, and it doesn't require anyone to actually forgive the character. If you're going through the effort of writing a redemption arc, also go through the effort to show other characters forgiving and accepting the redeemed character. Otherwise it doesn't sit right for me.
You had me before the egg metaphor! I think you bring up an important point with death, if we're only considering physical death. What about psychological death, that is the character is completely destroyed, and their old self is dead. I'm also not sure other characters have to forgive. I would think the redemption is even more powerful if there is no hope of forgiveness.
Agreed. Many of the best redemption arcs revolve around characters who did truly awful things. Things their surviving victims would never realistically forgive. Those arcs hit hard because they make it clear the character isn’t seeking redemption out of some surface desire to be liked or avoid the consequences of their actions, but because they understand what they did was wrong and they’re committed to being better from here on out. Redemption=Death definitely comes across as cheap if the narrative treats it as “Character X died, so they’re redeemed and you can’t criticize their actions anymore.” However, I think there are times where death has to be part of the atonement. Like, you can’t expect widespread forgiveness for Darth Vader. Billions died because of his actions. But his willingness to die defending his son from the evil he served for so long offers a very powerful conclusion to his arc. Heh, never underestimate how much some people are willing to forgive—or straight-up excuse—if they find a character attractive. Sometimes this even extends into the real world. Consider things like “pretty privilege” and hybristophilia.
I think this is one of the problems I have with the Redemption=Death trope. If they are truly redeemed, why does death have to be a part of the atonement? That just sounds punitive. Wouldn't their atonement be more impactful if they dedicate themselves to improving things rather than just going out in one heroic sacrifice? Ultimately it comes across that they have to die because it would be too hard to figure out what to do with them moving forward. Too hard to write how they could believable find forgiveness, so it's better not to bother and just off them so it becomes a non-issue. Now I wouldn't expect widespread forgiveness depending on what they've done, but I think if they've truly been redeemed, there should be a place for them moving forward, and there should be somebody who can see past what they've done to embrace the better person they've become. Which leads to the other main problem I have with Redemption=Death. While redemption can be quite poignant on its own, I also find forgiveness to be quite powerful and meaningful too. By ending so many redemption arcs with the character's death, I am being cheated on seeing how other characters could come to forgive them, and potentially more important, how the character in question comes to forgive themself. Those are stories I want to see, and a redemption arc without them kind of feels unfinished. Cut short, so to speak.
It's funny you mention that cuz that's kind of what I'm trying to write. Basically the first arc of book 2 centers around a character trying to atone for what they did. And seeing how everyone else reacts to this. From encouraging, to confusion and one that's straight up angry and not willing to forgive at first. Also her own thoughts and feelings as she goes through the process. This is where people found my writing a bit off though cuz the change is slow. And like some people have doubted it she will be liked as a result. This is tricky for me cuz I mean. Isn't a suddenly change cheap? Actually in a recent scene. The angry one straight up asks "do you even have a sense of ethics?" And she straight up says "no. I never have but, I want to find some. I want to be part of the team. Like I know practically I should have lied there but I didn't because I trying. I am being honest and I'm trying"
One of my early short stories was about a character named Davy Sprocket, and it was called The Rat Race. He had a souped-up Mustang, and got into a late-night backstreet rat race with somebody that resulted in him winning, but the other guy crashed and died. I don't remember, but the car might have crashed into a house. It cracks me up to remember it (I did say it was early)—he 'redeemed' himself in the few moments immediately after the crash, as the fire was still burning, by deciding he would never rat race again, and would now dedicate himself to being a good person. Silly early ideas about redemption when we're young teenagers. Anyway, as he drives off to embark on his new life of being good, he gets busted and goes to prison. Not death exactly, but punishment. And just in writing this I realized he still drove off, after his supposed 'redemption', and didn't stop to check if the guy was alive or could be rescued. Not much of a turnaround really! But this thread just made me realize it was very close to a redemption to death tale. I didn't think about it in such clear terms at the time, it was one of my early "profound" or "powerful" ideas after just writing silly stuff as a kid. And he didn't go through much of an arc at all! More like just "Oh shit! OK, I promise to be good from here on out!"
Accepting punishment—whether karmic cause-and-effect, de jure punishments from worldly governments, or spiritual consequences from the divine—for their misdeeds is a pretty important part of true redemption, in my opinion. To continue using Vader as an example, this is a man who was complicit in multiple genocides and personally murdered children. He can’t just walk away and live happily ever after. Realistically, he would’ve been tried and executed for his crimes by the New Republic if he’d survived. From a meta perspective, a creator has to craft a tight resolution the audience will find satisfying. If your range of options is 1) dies redeeming himself, 2) lives out his days redeemed but widely despised, 3) forgiven, 4) executed for his crimes, the first one ends up being the most effective. Now, I think Redemption=Death only works when the redemption arc is a subplot feeding into the main story rather than being the main story. Otherwise, you’re absolutely right that the trope eliminates some of the most interesting parts of redemption arcs.
@X Equestris I wish I could like that twice. Poetic justice demands the character be punished for their misdeeds. Coming to Jesus is not enough.
I gave it that second like for ya. Funny enough in this situation. She actually tried to dodge accountability for what she did with the law still. The one anger at her calls her out for this. But she replies "I don't care about jail. The reason I'm refusing to go currently is there is more of a mess to clean up. But honestly even with the mess uncleaned up. It you guys wanted me to confess and go to jail tomorrow. I would. Jail doesn't scare me. Not being able to clean up my meds does a little bit though."
Something I’ve had fun with in writing my most commonly recurring character is how the authorities have zero interest in punishing her because, as far as they’re concerned, she didn’t do anything wrong. She’s seen as a hero who did what needed to be done to end a terrible civil war. Ultimately, her guilt and self-loathing prove to be their own punishment. They drive her to give up her old life and throw herself into danger…but she never finds the “good death” she seeks. This pattern of death-seeking followed by hedonism to drown out the guilt repeats until she crosses paths with a warrior monk who convinces her to see the value in a good life. She joins their order, dedicates her life to protecting folk from monsters and magic, but one really important theme of those stories is that no amount of lives saved or evil slain will wash away her sins. All they can do is serve as proof of how completely she has changed…and maybe signal it’s okay for her to forgive herself. Whether this is enough to say she has truly been redeemed is a question she leaves to her creator goddess.
Oh yeah. That's good. A good twist on dodging jail. Funny enough I saw a similar story in which someone advised the government to punish a similar situation with the hopes that punitive damage would ease her mental guilt. Though the trick in my situation is the character doesn't care about being punitively damaged. Nor does she feel much guilt about the lives she took. Rather she feels a sense of debt to her comrades that elected to forgive her. She felt unworthy of forgiveness from a more pragmatic viewpoint. And she can tell that they are judging her on an ethical standard and they want her to improve. She wants to improve to keep her relationship with them. She wants to be worthy of the forgiveness they gave her. I think it leads to some interesting moments. Such as her saying she doesn't really have an ethical standard but she says that flat cuz she views honesty and something you'd expect from said ethical standard. Or how she finds out she killed someone that hurt her friends. Like someone that bullied one of her friends. Her reaction is "ha. Well guess I don't need to regret all the murder" And the person snaps at her saying "just cuz she hurt me doesn't me she deserved to die" And like that too causes a reflection point. Making her realize how she thought about things and how her friends did and how she wants to be better. Making her question her own sense of morals. But the trick is also a lot of people are like "this is her redemption arc? She still seems like a full on villian!"
Maybe she doesn't need to feel guilt, depending on why she killed them and how necessary that was, but taking a life always brings deep sorrow and a sense of irretrievable loss, unless the person is a psychopath or completely inhuman. If she doesn't feel true remorse and a powerful need to atone for what she's done then there's no redemption. I mean, unless she's a goddess or something, in which case human emotions and values don't apply. Or unless she belongs to a warrior society that values things very differently than we do, like the Greek society presented in the Illiad and the Odyssey.
Oh no. Nothing like self defense. Cold blooded murder. And nope. She's just a normal human from the Midwest. But this is why I opened the concept here. Like what counts as redemption? Someone reading this felt they'd like her more if she was gay. And I laughed thinking about that cuz like. So they were more willing to forgive her just cuz they liked her. But her ethics played less of a point. But she is trying to gain a sense of ethics but that word. "Gain" means no she doesn't currently have one lol
That wouldn't be redemption though. That's just somebody saying as long as she conforms to their own personal obsession then they don't care about ethics. That's like if somebody said "Well, that's unforgivable, unless Scarlett Johansson did it, she can do anything and I'd forgive her!" If she has no ethics then she can't be redeemed. Nobody who commits cold blooded murder and doesn't feel bad about it can ever be redeemed. That's a psychopath.
But what if she truly turns over a new leaf and does all the things that you'd consider right Help rebuild. Help save lives. Lived a life in which she became a hero. Your saying all that's void if she doesn't feel bad about what she has done?
Her friends. She thought she lost them when they saw who she was. But they gave her a second chance. They want her to grow. So she is trying to grow so she won't lose them. They are that important to her now. So she'd easily kill in she saw it in there better interest but she understands they don't want that
So, like the Terminator who stopped killing only because John Connor ordered him to, but didn't see anything wrong with blowing out people's kneecaps? He was a robot though, he had no real feelings or ethics, so can't be redeemed (until they switched on his Learning Mode and he learned why people cry). He was more like a toaster than a human being (at first). No, I don't see how anyone can be redeemed unless they understand that murder is wrong, and feel bad about the people they killed. I think what you're looking for isn't redemption, you just want to her to switch programming, sort of like what the Terminator did. You have to be fully human, with a full range of human emotions, and understand that murder is wrong, in order to gain redemption. I mean human in the ethical sense, not necessarily the species. Maybe humane is the right word.
She understands murder is wrong. She understands what ethics are. She just feels no inward pull towards being ethical. Though she is sad about this. She wants to feel what that pull feels like. And she is trying to discover it. It's just hard. Ya know? Like she legit tried to get innocent people she accidentally got thrown in jail out. Unprompted lol. By framing a dead guy she murdered lol. Yeah that part hurts doesn't it? Actually the part I see her as actually see as her redemption is when a bad guy almost kills all 6 of them and she's like "wait. I'll join the dark side if you make me strong enough to kill the rest of them" And it's an open betrayal but in mind she's thinking "I'd rather die then lose there respect but if they are gonna die. I'll become a target. I'll give them time to train and when they fight me. I'll die. If it means they are safe. I'm okay with this" I see that as a big moment for her. Not that she's actually gonna die but I just thought it shows how before she only cared about what directly benefited her and it moved to her willing to sacrifice herself
Yeah, willingness to sacrifice herself for the sake of others is a step in the right direction, but she still sounds like a robot with no understanding of human ethics. You have to understand ethics and be willing to be ethical before you are redeemed. Maybe the problem is the word redeemed, it's kind of vague. I can redeem a coupon at the store, and that has nothing to do with ethics. But usually when people talk about a redemption arc, they mean a person who has done terrible things finds their humanity, begins to feel the guilt for what they did, and atones for it, whatever difficulties they may have to go through in order to do that. Maybe it was during a war and they dehumanized the enemy (as we must do in order to be able to kill them), and repressed their natural emotions, but years later the emotions come out anyway and they go through hell, feeling what they didn't feel at the time. That's similar to what the Terminator went through, he had his ethics switched off because he was on a killing mission, but John and his mom switched it on and he slowly became human (emotionally) and began to see people as human beings rather than as targets. It was kind of sappy, but then it's a Cameron film. As good as they usually are (up through maybe Titanic), they do often have pretty sappy premises.
Here's a pretty decent article about writing redemption arcs: Redemption Arc: Meaning, Examples, and Writing Tips
