1. Aceldama

    Aceldama free servant Contributor

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    Telling

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Aceldama, Oct 29, 2022.

    The 8th chapter of my novel is a lot of telling. It seems that's the main flaw I have in my writing. I've done a good job in the past 7 chapters in terms of dialogue and action. This chapter though the first 1000 words are a lot of telling and setting up. No long diatribes and I'm moving from point to point, but it just seems like it may be too much padding.

    The rest of the 2k words are a lot of solid world building, action/dialogue. Just would like some opinions on whether 1k words of telling is too much.
     
  2. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Tough to tell without seeing it. What do you mean by telling? Is it narrative summary unbroken by dialogue or action? Nothing inherently wrong with that. Or even unusual. So long as it serves a point and isn't boring.

    The whole show vs tell thing is stupid overrated and often misinterpreted. It's supposed to only refer to moments/elements that are directly telegraphed (told) by the author instead of being allowed to unfold naturally (shown). Or worse, insulting the reader by explaining things that don't need explanation.
     
  3. Set2Stun

    Set2Stun Rejection Collector Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2023

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    I think telling can be fine in proper doses and without contrivance, but yeah, kind of hard to say without seeing a sample. It really depends.

    Sometimes trying to show through characters instead of just telling as the third-person narrator is more jarring. I read a book a couple months back where in the first chapter, this kid is like, "hey dad, while we're walking to our neighbour's place to investigate the probable slaughter of their entire family, can you tell me the origin story of our world again?"
    "Sure, son. Long ago.."
     
  4. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    As you know, Bob....
     
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  5. Set2Stun

    Set2Stun Rejection Collector Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2023

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    A classic !
     
  6. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    Whenever I find myself feeling like I'm just moving my actors from point A to point B, and the work shifts to a telling mode, my educated impulse is to leap forward to a plot point. Take it by faith that whatever telling you just can't live without, can be lived without.
     
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  7. Alcove Audio

    Alcove Audio Contributor Contributor

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    What you need to decide is how much of the information is really necessary. If it is needed to move the story/plot/characters, is it coming across as a data dump? How far down can you distill the information? Can it be divided into pieces and placed into other chapters?
     
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  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Sometimes the better choice really is, as Gary said, to just cut it out. The radical choice. Some of your darlings need to be murdered. Always consider both alternatives, especially if it's a long section of telling or exposition. That implies you might be dumping garbage in that isn't even needed at all.

    I just wrestled with this, and finally realized the whole chapter that came out so ridiculously long was fluff, but fluff I really liked and wanted to include. A little of it was necessary info, but very little. So I dumped the chapter and moved the needed info to an earlier one.
     
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  9. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    It all goes together, some telling, some showing, some dialogue, some omission and inference... world building detail is almost always flugff that the author feels is necessary but the editor red lines... people will say 'but tolkein...' but anyone who's ever tried to read the silmarion knows that he should have had a more robust editor too
     
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  10. Aceldama

    Aceldama free servant Contributor

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    Heres the first 500 words.

    The stars were bright this far out. The night air was cool but not cold. The moon partly obstructed by a couple obsedian clouds. Sheila decided to hit the Snake Eyes building on the outskirts of town. She figured the infiltration would be quicker, and easier. That's the extent of the caution she had planned. With her postion as Guardian stripped and her husband in the hospital in a coma, dying. She wasn't much able to make a careful plan. Nor did she care too. She would get what she came for. And nothing was going to stop her.

    She walked up the narrow dirt path that led to the front gate, and security hut. A barren and quiet path on both sides. All that was heard was the soft crunch of gravel under her feet, as she approached the sole guard station. She knew she could cut the security cameras from there. There was just one obstacle in her way.

    The guard "shack" was a small, square brick building. With one gusrd posted inside. He was supposed to be watching the security cameras but as Sheila approached she could see inside the only window as the rather obese and aged old guard was watching black and white sitcoms on a small tv.

    She walked up to the door, and opened it without a moments hesitation.

    "What?" The man was jerked up and to attention, clambering to his feet and facing Sheila. "Who are you?"

    "Didn't you call my escort service? This IS the right address, isnt it?" Sheila said as she unbuttoned her blouse, exposing her cleavage. She moved her way to the security guard, who was just dumb enough to get swept away in her temptation.

    "No-one called any escort." The man said, hand on his pistol. Sweating from her sexual advances.

    "Oh, well you wouldn't mind it would you? I'd hate to have wasted time on a wrong address." Sheila said as she pushed her body against the security guard, kissing him and grabbing his crotch.

    The security guard took his hand off his pistol and held Sheila's waist, kissing her back and lowering his guard.

    The man was too dumbstruck by lust to be able to see the knife coming. With her free hand Sheila had taken her bush knife from its sheath on her hip and plunged it deep in the poor man's gut. He let out a guttural houl as Sheila looked him square in the eyes and slashed the knife out through his side, disembowling him.

    ----
    It goes on in that type of way for the next 500 words.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2022
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  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    This can be turned into showing—'Gravel crunched softly under her feet as she approached the sole guard station.' Just take out the filter phrase 'could be heard', which is a variation on 'she heard'. These phrases make her the subject of the sentence, and hearing something the verb, which is dull. The way I changed it the subject is Gravel and the verb is crunched. Crunching is much more active than hearing something crunch.

    Overall though, this doesn't seem that bad. I expected it to all be nothing but telling, but really it's only a few sentences here and there, and they can easily be converted to showing like I did for the one above. Just look out for those weasel words and phrases—saw, heard, felt, thought, remembered etc. They turn her into the subject of each sentence, and make her seeing or hearing or feeling the verb.
     
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  12. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    'Sheila looked in the tiny window. The guard was was watching a black and white sitcom on a small tv, not paying any attention to the monitors.' You want to limit use of 'as' to link two sentences together into one. It tends to flatten action and make things seem dull. Saying what he was supposed to be doing takes us out of the moment, it's her conjecturing about non-concrete things, possibilities etc, and not anything concrete and immediate. In scene you focus on the immediate and the concrete and actions. This is what makes for showing. Showing is done in scene, telling in narrative summary. That means if the narrator is summarizing things, you're telling. But if you describe what's actually happening or what the POV character is doing or seeing (without telling us she's seeing it) then you're in scene and therefore showing.

    The easiest way to think about it is that showing is what a video camera could see or hear. Telling requires the narrator to explain something that isn't a concrete thing or an action, like what the guard was supposed to be doing, You can't see that because it's a thought. No way a video camera could show us what he was supposed to be doing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2022
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  13. Set2Stun

    Set2Stun Rejection Collector Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2023

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    Agree with Xoic, there isn't that much telling that I would substitute with showing. I rearranged some things from the first section that had most of the telling. There are some double adjectives, but I don't think they're too jarring.


    Sheila decided to hit the Snake Eyes building. It was on the outskirts of town, far enough that the stars were noticeably brighter, despite the intermittent clouds that passed overhead. She knew that it would be much easier to infiltrate the complex at night. There was simply no time to make the proper preparations – she had to act now. Stripped of her position as Guardian, and with her husband in a coma, who lay dying in the hospital, her position was desperate. But she knew she would get what she came for. Nothing was going to stop her.

    She walked up the narrow gravel road leading to the security gate and guard shack, each step sounding a light crunch in the crisp night air. Her intel on the building confirmed that she could disable the surveillance system from this location. There was just one obstacle in her way.

    It was a simple square building, made of brick but with large windows, with a solitary guard posted within. As Sheila drew closer, she could see that the lone occupant was rather obese, and clearly approaching retirement age. Rather than watching the monitors for the security cameras, his attention was instead fixed on a small TV. Old sitcoms in black and white.

    Well, at least the first step should be easy enough, Sheila thought as she emerged from the shadows.
     
  14. Aceldama

    Aceldama free servant Contributor

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    Helpful suggestions.
     
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  15. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    You bring up a good point in this post. If a writer finds themselves doing long narration in an early draft, it is fine as long as you know it is a placeholder for what you will flesh out later. But going back to that later is definitely necessary. One resource I found that helped me with this was "wired for story" by Lisa Cron. She discusses the actual neuroscience behind keeping a reader interested in the story.
     
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  16. ruskaya

    ruskaya Contributor Contributor

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    I am going to bring an example from a TV show because it easily shows when and how the use of telling fails, in my opinion. In the opening of Cable Girls within the first few minutes the main character introduces the story--sounding like a prologue, it intends to bring the viewer up to speed with the story to ensure the viewer understands what is about to happen. However it comes across as a lazy attempt at filling gaps to make sure the viewer doesn't miss the theme of the story. Although in a novel I don't think it would work failing to hook the reader, in a TV show it is more forgiving the prologue occupying the first few minutes of the first episode and then the scene switches to the actual story. Nonetheless, I think this is actually a great example of what not to do in writing in the attempt at filling the background.

    I like looking at TV shows for storytelling because mistakes as well as good examples get branded onto my brain. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2022
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  17. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I think what you have here is pretty good. I really wouldn't look to change much. To me, it seems like you're on the right track with this. I wouldn't worry too much about showing and telling. The segment you posted is an interesting read. It would make me keep reading. Good luck with this!
     
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  18. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    Minor point here. She is trying to slip into the facility, the way I read this. That knife attack would leave her bloody. Being this close to him, it would make more sense to go for the kidney, from the back, so any blood spray would be away from her. Also a sheathed knife on her hip, might not be the best thing for the way she is playing this. Granted the guard is distracted. Even a five inch knife has a risk of being noticed. The best position for the knife would depend on what she is wearing. Small of the back would work, generally. Strapping the sheath to her thigh, in a dress, etc.
    Minor points, but factors that need to be considered, as they could have a major impact on the story.
     
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  19. Aceldama

    Aceldama free servant Contributor

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    I thought about some minor details such as those and came to the conclusion that the chapter would be better suited at having there be one guard she had to deal with.
     
  20. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    Your the author. I was just raising some points that might not have been considered
     
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  21. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    There's also the issue that if hes holding her waist, presumably in close, to stab him in the gut from her hip she has to draw past his hands and then somehow get the blade over and inside his arms... also people rarely fall quietly from disemboweling. I'd second the idea of going for a kidney, or the side of the throat (although that's bloody)
     
  22. montecarlo

    montecarlo Contributor Contributor

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    Was it Hardy Boys? Of course it was Hardy Boys.
     
  23. montecarlo

    montecarlo Contributor Contributor

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    I read the excerpt and I'm not sure why you thought it was too much telling. It seems like normal action and dialog to me. I was thinking you might be going full Asimov and take 3000 words to describe a planet. My recommendation is to keep writing and silence the inner editor for now.
     
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  24. Set2Stun

    Set2Stun Rejection Collector Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2023

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    The Shadow of the Gods by John Gwynne.
    I wasn't sold on it for the most part, but it takes a lot for me to give up on books, especially in genres I love. And the last quarter sucked me in enough to buy the next one in the series.
     

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