A unique question I kind of feel bad about to ask. (Mature Content)

You make good points that I recently became aware of. Which is, for all her quirks and such, my book idea doesn't really have any built in mechanic to express any of it well. Oh and don't worry, this book is a LONG way off. lol. It is a habit of my to over think details, even ones that don't mean much. Like, I have an explanation of how the universe began and what caused the big bang and how magic was involved at the big bang! I can see no way how it ever is going to come up. I guess you could say I am big on internal consistency.

Here is the couple tricks.
1. Her current Alpha is a villain.
2. I mentioned in my last post. He is a jerk. Fully aware of her condition and purposefully uses it against her for his own benefit.

So, can't quite do the tick you are talking about. At least not from that perspective. I thought it might be interesting for the heroes to become aware of her condition and feel bad for her and as such not want to hurt her yet have no way to free her. Is that equally interesting?

Though, I don't follow why you say she has no emotions? I mean, she clearly can feel anger or frustration. And as someone else pointed out, her self evaluation is just connected to him. So if he didn't like her, she would feel shame. Are these not emotions?

 

Just thought I should note; you mentioned a bunch of ways that she might doubt her current Alpha. If you aren't having her become aware of her illogical element, I would say have her at least change her mind about this guy. Or question him a little.

 

I fail to see how. Her mind considers her logic logical. You not considering it logical doesn't change that she views it as logical. Plus the current Alpha knows her condition and is specifically using it against her. She didn't stand a chance!

 

@GuardianWynn in contrast to @peachalulu's comment, I could relate to her if I was to imagine the freedom of giving up control or my people pleasing habits and then magnifying everything 1000 times and focusing it on one person. That despite any indifference, distaste or pain she may ( or may not) experience in fulfilling her Alpha's needs, she is driven above all else, by her need for his approval.

Also, being 'wired' differently doesn't mean a programmed automaton to me. Just that her view of the world is very different from a lot people.

And going back to the consent thing, sex could mean very little to her other than a tool for her to use. I assume there would be so many more layers that give weight to who she is beyond the outline you've given us. Not that it means she has to see herself as a victim even if there was past trauma.

So at no point did I see her as unfeeling or robotic, but maybe I have missed your point...

As far as your concept, I would find it interesting if you could tell a story of a dysfunctional relationship with two characters who lose control in their own ways, how it works and how it doesn't work, and to question who really has the power in this relationship. And if you feel sad for her, then you might want to have more of a think about why. Is it really because you think the Alpha treats her poorly or do you think she is missing something?

If it is about the Alpha's lack of appreciation then maybe he learns her true value to him. So he changes (a little) while she remains infuriatingly the same (or not). I always love a villainous hero who remains bad, but it doesn't sound like you're writing a romance here!

I do like @peachalulu's idea of the Alpha's POV and it's worth exploring.

Good luck!

 

That was sort of how I saw it. He is good in her mind, thus her service is good and thus she would be happy. But a few people countered saying they saw this less as her feeling happy and more her avoiding feelings of unhappiness. Which, sounds like an interesting counter. I don't feel equip to counter it.

Oh, and yeah. I imagine sex would be very meaningless to her. So yeah, I think this goes back to what @izzybot said how there are really two ways to look at this. From her POV. Which has her getting what she wants and giving away something she deems meaningless. Which in no way sounds like rape. But from an outside POV it is a girl that in many respects is almost unable to say no and being by that extension forced to do something she didn't want to do. Even if she isn't opposed, it still isn't her idea. From that POV,it seems fairly easy to relate it to being rape.

Oh yeah, in a sense, I think I do already plan to do that. As I mentioned, she is like his body guard and super good at what she does besides that. But she tries to anticipate needs and is occassionally wrong, leading to her messing up an entire plan. Which frustrates the Alpha. I see the Alpha looking at her like the golden goose that just pooped on her carpet. Angry, doesn't want to clean up the mess and almost kills her but remembers that she is a golden goose and that fairly soon she will be back to giving him golden eggs.

The real tricky thing is. I do say he is stronger and it is true in a technical sense, but if there was a list of people able to kill him. She would be on it, and the heroes almost find her harder to fight than him. But that might possible be because I was thinking of having the heroes feel bad for her.

As for feeling bad for her. Yeah, I think it is a combo of both and probably more. Mainly thinking of how strong, loyal, devoted and talented she is and yet she is working with someone that has no respect for her. It feels like she deserves respect.

Well, yeah not a romance, I even made a point of saying this Alpha never has sex with her. But, I dunno, you may like my villain. To put it blunt, he is a polite asshole! I can see how like bowing or offering polite jestures such as wiping his feet before entering your home or maybe even helping you clean up a table and all of this before he kills you. If asked about why he would be so nice to someone right be for murdering them. I think he would reply. "Just because I was going to kill him is no reason not to be civilized about it."

But if I wanted to explore her Alpha's POV more like @peachalulu is suggesting, it would have to be a side story about her that can use a former Alpha.

 

Hmmmm... I 'm still not buying the consent argument. She can say no because she can remove herself from the situation but she doesn't want to. There's something else she wants more. So as long as she has the choice to be in a relationship then she has to have accountability for her actions.

And to be clear, I didn't say I liked your villain but that I do love villainous heroes that remains bad. That would mean that there would be more to this person than just being an evil bastard who only cares about himself. But it sounds like you already have it set that he only wants to use and mistreats her, has no care for her and is not redeemable in any way at all. That's fine, but not someone I'd like that's for sure.

Anyway, as I have tried to hint, these characters still need more layers and depth for them to make sense. That he is not just evil and she is not just a mindless robot.

Just because they don't have sex, doesn't mean there couldn't be romantic elements in this story and how such a relationship could develop in that direction in spite of him being horrible to her to begin with. But what's clear to me is you don't have any intention of moving the story that way. That's fine too, whatever you think works for the story you have in mind.

 

The point is she isn't capable of moving beyond her condition by choice so she doesn't really have the choice to say no because she's always going to say no. She's not uncomfortable with who she is but who she is isn't going to change. She's so far removed from saying no it's functionally as if she's mind-controlled or something. If you never even remotely think of saying no, you might as well not have the ability. It's not her choice to be this way.

 

I was sitting on the fence while reading this thread, until I read this line:

In BDSM, the submissive has all of the power in the relationship because a submissive has the power to say NO. A lot of people don't think of it that way, but in a healthy D/s relationship, a Dominant has to respect the submissive's safe word when the role play/whatever the hell they're doing becomes too much. So, in the end, whatever they're doing is by the submissive's choice. Juuuuust like your character. She's choosing to adopt him as her Alpha, because she doesn't want to deal with things anymore.

Obviously your character wouldn't say no, but she has the power in the relationship because she could see something in her Alpha that would make her think "This shouldn't be my Alpha because he's making me believe/do things that I can't accept as fact and still live in reality." Because, your character DOES live in reality, as you said. She's completely aware of what she's doing and she's aware that it's not normal. Thing is, she doesn't care. That's the whole point: she doesn't want to think about it to care. She wants The Truth and sometimes there isn't a 100% truth. So, that's why she clings to the Alpha so hard.

Because she has the power in the relationship, I would say no, it's not rape. She's choosing to follow this Alpha to fulfill her own needs.

 

You are awesome! And you make an interesting point.

Well, yeah. Hard. I mean, yeah, he is just using her and he is clear in his intention of this, to the point of even saying or feeling. "She is like a car, or a bike. She serves a purpose, so I keep her around. When she stops serving that purpose, I will throw her out. She would become garbage. What else do you expect me to do with garbage?"

But in spite of the serious levels of jerk there. Some people find him interesting in what they related to me as a likable way. Seemingly based on his politeness. Which... for a moment made me scared I had failed. He is meant to be a jerk, but then I write little things like above and begin to wonder how anyone can like this jerk?!

You are right. They need more layers. And ways to express those layers. At no point am I trying to say they are perfect as is. The trick though, in expression is POV.

I saw the story as having them be villains that are mostly in the shadows. So, it seems like that seriously limits the ability to express them properly. I suppose it might be neat to write more stories in their POV to give them some of these expressive ideas.

Actually, I wanted to write a story about her in her POV. Sort of an origin of her meeting her current Alpha after he killed her previous one. A way to express how her dynamic is, and what it was before and after meeting him. Yet I felt afraid too because of the rape undertone my friends were telling it has. Plus, not sure if I could capture it in her POV accurately.

Again, thanks so much for the comment.

I don't really get it. I mean, I get why you think it is rape, more than half of this thread expressed it. But the person you quoted gave an argument against a thought and all your saying is that thought over. You aren't really expanding the argument. She said that this girls has a unique relationship but that she thinks it is a relationship which makes it not rape. You are just saying, no. Please expand upon how this isn't a unique relationship or how the person you quoted is wrong. Don't just say you think they are wrong.

Thank you for the very nice way of putting it. I wish I had more to say, but I kind of don't. I understand all of your arguments perfectly.

I guess I will ask. Do you find this character interesting?

 

The villian character is cruel without a solid purpose behind it, and BDSM relationships 99% of the time are not like this. An interesting antagonist has a motivation you can at least see or understand without necessarily relating to him/her.

Also, this does strike a chord with people who interact with and know people with special needs. You seem unaware of how many special needs women are raped at large group homes or mental institutions. Even more horrifying, these women sometimes get pregnant and then a baby is born with no parent capable of caring for it, so it goes straight to foster care.

Some people may enjoy it, but it definitely is not my cup of tea.

 

@GuardianWynn I was responding to the claim she had a choice. Hence my heavy use of the term choice. I was saying it's superficial to say that she has a choice, because it ignores the reality the choice does nor exist to her. She isn't victim to a control imposed on her by him, but she's victim to a control imposed by her condition. And that control gives him all the power. Like a prisoner with a prison guard, except far worse. He's in the most extreme position of authority and there's not even any love in sex she might have with an Alpha. She doesn't love them, they're just her programming, to go back to the robot thing. She may not be emotionless, but its not really about what she wants is it? Just what she does automatically.

 

Well, to be fair. He is a jerk, but I have only briefly mentioned him like twice. He has a goal. To become GOD!!! I know, humble guy right?(Sarcasm.) To the point he looks down on a lot of people. Seriously, sort of a "You exist to be a stone I step on in my ascension. Feel blessed that you had enough worth to be even that to me." I did mention jerk, right? Maybe to light of a word? I do try to avoid curses on forums.

Well, you are quite right. My knowledge is limited. But that is why I enjoy opening a topic here. I want to see opinions. I want to see people call him a jerk or feel bad for her or think she is stupid or think it is rape or not think it is rape. I want to see that market place of ideas spin around and it has. So I am happy. Actually, your comment was more toward me than the situation or the girl. I would love to hear your ideas or thoughts or reactions, if you want to share them.

Better, but not great. I mean, yes you go into a bit more detail saying that her desires take away or ability even know what she wants and by extension that she can't consent. I get that is your argument, but that is still sort of a repeat.

Look, I see it like this.

Argument 1. She can't consent based on above issues. Being that her mentality takes away her ability to choice and as such, she can't consent.

Argument 2. She is picking. She is picking not to pick and that is a valid choice. Just because it isn't your choice doesn't make it invalid.

Argument 3. ??? You can't just repeat yourself. Why is argument two invalid?

 

If it isn't your choice you don't have a choice. You don't call it consent if you are held at gunpoint. You just made made my argument for me. Agreeing she's not choosing and can't means you're saying I'm right. Either you think she has a choice and can consent, and we debate, or you think she doesn't and can't, and we agree.

 

I don't feel able to write a nice reply,

So I am going to tag @LinnyV and @Nicoel because I think they might be able to put into words what I seem unable to at the present moment.

 

I can only think of one scenario to explain argument two better... Let's say you want to take a class to learn how to cook and the price for the class is nonrefundable. By signing up for the class you are not only agreeing to take the class, but you are also agreeing to do whatever your instructor thinks is appropriate/necessary during that class. If you disagree with the instructor, you have two options: do it or drop the class.

The character "signed up for class" with her Alpha with the knowledge she was going to do 100% whatever the hell he wanted her to do, with the understanding that she had two choices: leave him or do it.

Because of her personality disorder, those are the only choices we have.

Taking the class/choosing to be with the Alpha is her choice, and by "paying the fee" and committing - she has consented to whatever he wanted. Otherwise, she'll leave. Her choice is to let him make the decision as long as he's her Alpha, and she made that choice and she can always change it. It's been mentioned before that she's stronger than he is - he's not keeping her there.

 

@GuardianWynn
Did I explain argument 2 better?

Also, yes, I find the character interesting to a certain extent. I don't think I could read a book from her POV, but perhaps have an Alpha's perspective would be interesting.

Mostly though, I find this debate the most interesting out of them all. It does open up a lot of questions about the law and morals of today. When I first read your explanation of the character, I thought of someone with a hoarding problem. They keep everything (and have a logical explanation) but they also function in day to day society and are not unhappy. So, is it our business to walk into their house and tell them they need to throw their stuff out?

 

Yep. I think so.

Well, knowing me I may one day start a story from her POV or her Alpha's POV but the current idea is that they are villains. So, the story is from the POV of their enemy. So.... how does that sound?

 

What Oscar keeps reducing this to is a woman that has a 'condition' and then boddagetta is relating this to people with special needs and the horrors of that. It's so easy to point everything to the victimization of a broken mind and that is what I find so frustrating. That kind of characterization doesn't interest me because it's such an easy path to take rather than showcase the complexity and resilience of the human mind.

This person does not come across as a special needs person or under some sort of mind control. She has demands, she has expectations and knows how to go about putting herself in a position to ensure her needs are being met. If people want to see this person as a rape victim, then so be it. Comes across as a bit simplistic to me.

 

I like your view point. So simple and yet so powerful.

Also, yeah. We agree. I don't want her to be viewed as a victim. I certainly didn't mean to imply this thread that she was a victim. I was more afriad to be honest. I had the idea to write a short story about her she met her current Alpha. And the idea involves her living with a previous Alpha. It seems perfectly natural to me that the previous Alpha likely had sex with her. I don't want to undercut the story by avoiding that obviously possible idea. At the same time, I didn't want to scare people away with rape in a story. So I was interested to see how people reacted.

But you make such a strong point. That well she is strong and a victim isn't strong, right? Her story would probably reflect that too. In the sense that she wouldn't feel like she is being raped. She would be happy to engage in sex for the reasons you pointed out. So maybe I was being too scared originally by thinking such a short story would have rape undertones?

Thank you again.

 

But it was clearly stated before she only leaves out of lack of fulfillment of conditions. @GuardianWynn the more I discuss this the more it seems like you're slightly changing the description situation to fit the idea that it's concensual even though originally it was not. Yes, again, it's not like he's tying her down. But it's still abuse of a sort, because the condition is not a choice and leaving willfully is not a option,she can only follow the criteria of the condition. What kind of consent is that?

 

I am not changing her for the thread. But my original post did lack some of it. Throughout the thread, people have asked questioned which caused me to explain. If you feel 2 posts of mine are at conflict. Please point it out.

 

Well you said she wouldn't leave unless she felt hey didn't count as Alpha, and now you're acting like she'd leave an Alpha is she didn't want sex or something. She's following preset criteria of following the Alpha; whoever she might think is the Alpha. And that's not a free lifestyle. Her obsession is consuming. It's not about consent when she has such a condition that she treats a person like this. It's fundamentally a corrupt relationship, ergo; rape.

 

I'm not saying she is automatically unable to consent because she has a condition and I don't consider her "special needs" I consider to have the need for treatment, which is standard whenever we have problems. Please don't make me out to be some kind of whinger who cries "mental illness!" as an excuse for everything, it's not what I'm saying. Like it or not, that's exactly the interpretation that convenient's to your argument.
Now, to address the idea of her strength, you fundamentally misrepresent strength. A character strength does not come form being slave to the compulsive behaviours of mental conditions and being so needy about it that you won't recognize you are illogical. She has strength of a sort, but deep down she is also vulnerable, and lacking in true fulfillment. She's never going to be truly happy in this lifestyle. Acting on mental illness without hope for change by yourself, surprisingly, is not considered strong or healthy. Really, I see you guys point, but I can't see how someone fulfilling an innate, unhealthy compulsion is either consenting or strong, she's giving in to an automatic because she doesn't see any other option.

 

Could some of the other guys come back? Where did you go? @ChickenFreak? @Feo Takahari? @NeighborVoid? Someone? I feel a little pressured being the sole representative of this side. Could I get some help please?

EDIT: Well, sole other than that one post by @BoddaGetta that was more of an anecdote than an argument, not to insult, still a good post.

 

I actually made a point to say, sex is not something she would leave over. So no, she won't leave even if an Alpha beats her during sex. Leaving her Alpha is in response to him not ordering her around basically. So obvious sex doesn't meet the conditions to make her leave.
I also considered you idea of her not being able to consent as a fair argument. At the moment, I am liking @Nicoel and @LinnyV more, but I was still listening to your argument. Though, you are kind of just repeating yourself again. Do you have more?