1. Apples
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    Apples Member

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    Blunt Force Trauma?

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Apples, Apr 8, 2007.

    Is it possible for a teenage girl to kill an older woman with a hammer, while not leaving any blood, and furthermore, framing a middle-aged man for the crime?

    What about increasing the death toll to two women, yet still no blood? Does that defy statistics or logic?

    Please only answer if you feel you're qualified to do so. Also, referrals to any sources used would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Peter
     
  2. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Yes, but it depends.
    How big is the girl? How big is the hammer? Are the women together in the same room, or can they be attacked individually?

    Using an ordinary hammer there will be blood. If its a basic nail hammer, it will only kill something by cracking the skull, or using the claw part to pierce the skin and break veins. Both leave blood.

    You'd need at least a 10 pound sledgehammer, and the girl would have to be strong enough to swing it fairly accurately and with a lot of force behind it.
    The hammer will have to hit the body, around the kidneys preferably, but almost anywhere in the gut could do it. The force of the blow should crush and break some internal organs without breaking the skin. The person would probably spit up some blood though. And it will take them a little bit of time to die.

    To frame a middle age man, each blow would have to do a lot of damage, unless the man in question is fairly weak. The more you hit the victim the sooner they die, so having the victim hit 5 times would be reasonable. But to frame the man each blow would have to be enough to kill her. Police seeing five blows, each of which could kill the victim will think that either the murderer was in a rage, or wanted to make sure the woman died quickly. So hitting the woman while she's lying down would be the best way to go. It allows an overhead swing which has the most force. A side swing could work, but it takes a lot of muscle to put enough force into the blow to kill. It also raises the chance of the victim moving. If you miss while swinging a sledgehammer you're going to be seriously off balance.

    For two women, unless they're both asleep, or in different rooms, it would be very difficult. The first victim wouldn't be a huge problem, but the second victim would have enough time to get up and that makes taking them down harder. Trying to catch someone while carrying a heavy hammer is difficult, you're off balance, and you have to hold the hammer up and out of the way of your legs. A strong man would have trouble doing it if the woman was a decent runner, and didn't have a lot of obstacles in her way. So a teenager unless she's an athlete is going to have serious problems.

    So as long as the girl isn't 98 pounds wet, and plans very carefully she should be able to do it, if the victim is asleep or at least lying down. If the victim is standing up the girl has to be quite a bit stronger. She will at least have to be into some type of weightlifting so that her arms and shoulders have the proper muscles.

    Don't have any links. Sorry, but most of my knowledge comes from various medical books, and using sledge hammers to break down machinery. So I do know how to use a hammer, the medical knowledge you'll have to take me at my word for. But I believe its fairly accurate.
     
  3. Apples
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    Apples Member

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    Thank you very much for the detailed response. Luckily, my plot has one of the women killed in her sleep, while the other is unaware in a separate room. The second one is then caught off guard as she exits the room.

    What about a strike to the throat, in effect breaking the victim's neck? Would a regular hammer still leave blood?

    Thanks again for the help.

    -Peter
     
  4. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Hitting the throat wouldn't leave blood, but its a hard shot to make if the persons awake. It wouldn't have to break the neck just crush the wind pipe.
    But if a persons aware of the strike, they instinctively protect their throats. So striking it with a hammer will more likely lead to hitting the chin. Painful and it will potentially knock them out, but it won't kill them.
    So maybe use it for the sleeping woman, but the woman who's awake will have to be taken by surprise. In that case it would be easier just to use some fishing line and strangle her from behind. The man can still be framed, and at the worst there's only a thin line of broken skin.

    Edit: Forgot to mention. If using a sledgehammer, make sure it has a long handle. It increases the momentum, so you don't need to put as much muscle behind it to do real damage.

    Second edit: I just realized I made a mistake. The sledgehammer wouldn't have to be 10 pounds. 5 pounds would be enough. Anything lighter than five pounds would require some real muscle behind it. Five pounds with a long handle will be enough to kill the woman in the way you want, but ten pounds would still be the best.
     
  5. Apples
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    Apples Member

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    Interesting, however the hammer plays a significant role in the plot, so it has to be the murder weapon. The type of hammer is flexible, but a regular claw hammer would be the most realistic under these circumstances. I'm thinking a blow to the throat on the sleeping woman, then a few shots to the abdomen/hands/feet to the other one, before finally snapping her neck (with bare hands).

    You think framing the man would still be possible? Would a teenage girl be able to break a woman's neck?

    Thanks,
    Peter
     
  6. Evelyn
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    Evelyn Senior Member

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    Hunh.

    I'd think it'd be easy enough, if the victim(s) were unaware (in a drugged sleep, perhaps) to kill them with one quick hard blow to the solar plexus, throat, or either temple; and for that she'd really only need a standard household claw hammer (usually 8 oz. or so, I think?).

    (The throat blow might rupture vessels & get bloody, though.)

    The girl would need very good aim with the hammer, along with some sort of sleeping pills and a way to slip them to the victim(s).

    Framing the middle-aged man could be done by getting his fingerprints on the hammer (and keeping hers off of it), introducing a cash reciept for purchase the hammer into his pockets and the empty bottle of sleeping pills in his bathroom wastebasket, or else she could just leave properly modifed version of this post on his dresser :)

    (The above is based on my self defense training, and years of reading murder mysteries.)

    - Evelyn
     
  7. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    The problem with hitting someone on the temple with a nail hammer is it will likely leave blood. Unless you can control the force very well, the small surface area of the hammer will crush both the bone and the skin. If its too hard you'll actually embed the hammer in the skull which will send blood all over the place.

    Hitting the solar plexus with an ordinary hammer will work. (I actually can't believe I forgot about that) But a larger hammer a two pounder will work better for that than a small nail hammer. A larger hammer would ensure a kill, and less chance of missing if they're moving around, or your aims not perfect.
     
  8. Evelyn
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    Evelyn Senior Member

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    Oops! Cross-posted.

    Victim #1 gets a blow to the solar plexus or temple, and I'd go for solar plexus for victim #2: it's less guarded than the throat and an easier target than the temples. And if she misses the solar plexus on the first blow to victim #2, whatever she does hit is likely to be incapacitate the vic enough for her to get in a second swing.

    - Ev
     
  9. Evelyn
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    Evelyn Senior Member

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    Cross-posted again :(

    Hunh. Temple more bloody than throat? ...I can see that.
    I'd go solar plexus all the way, then.
     
  10. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Didn't see the question about the broken neck.
    Its very hard to break the neck. Doing it bare handed unless your strong and know exactly what your doing is nearly impossible.
    Now if the persons lying face down, and you have a hammer you can do it. A nail hammer will do it with a few very hard strikes. But a one or two pound hammer should be able to do it in one blow.
    Also small but heavy hammers are fairly common for people who work with machines. A lot of handy men use them to help take off stuck bolts, and take apart equipment.
     
  11. Evelyn
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    Evelyn Senior Member

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    I would have thought that, with the victim incapacitated and lying face down, kneeling on the back with one knee directly on the spine and then pulling the head straight back with both hands would do it.

    But then, I haven't actually tried it myself ;)

    - Evelyn the Innocent
     
  12. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    That still takes a lot of effort, easier to use the hammer.
     
  13. Apples
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    Apples Member

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    Good points, both of you.

    This really helps a lot, thanks. :)
     
  14. Remoah
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    Remoah Member

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    Actually, bending the head back is not a good way of doing it, the best way is to lay the enemy face up and place one hand behind the head, and the other over the mouth, and with a sharp twist, snap the neck as far to a 180 as possible.
    Then, this is the coupe-de-grace, in one violent movement, snap the head to the side. or backwards, because yes, you've broken the neck bones, but to sever the spinal cord. What i mean by the side is that even if you have the head at a 90 degree angle, you bend it towards you, just as long as you've snapped the neck bones.

    But anyhow, it takes ALOT of force, that's why special forces prefer to use knives and silenced weapons, because if you don't snap the neck properly all you have is a sentry screaming his lungs out and a platoon of base guard charging at you.
     
  15. Remoah
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    A mallet would be ideal, one of those rubber ones, even a weak person can swing it with enough velocity to the temple to kill a person, see, you only need to bruise the brain and they can die, an adequate hit to the ear, the place where the skull and neck connect or even the jaw is capable of killing.

    Just remembered.
    My mother, being a paramedic, sometimes tells me details of a job she's attended, excluding names, places (other than the town), ect, anyhow.

    She told me once of a pub fight that turned nasty, a drunk man beat a fellow 15 times with a crowbar, his hair was litterally FULL of blood, 'like a stringy jelly' i believe were her words. I dunno if he survived, but either way, maybe that can tell you something.
     
  16. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    I like the rubber mallet idea. That would prevent most bleeding.
     
  17. Evelyn
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    Evelyn Senior Member

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    Too bad the hammer's integral to the plot - a nice sap, or a sock half-full of bee-bees, could be really handy here.

    What about using the wooden or rubber-covered handle of the hammer as a mallet? I've been known to do that for quick household jobs - the trick is not to let the head rebound into one's face and put an eye (or a nose) out.


    - Evelyn, who stands guilty of tool abuse
     
  18. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    That could work, but you still have the problem of the small surface area. A hammer to the solar plexus is still the best bet.
     
  19. Apples
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    Apples Member

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    So what's the consensus? Would a rubber mallet (like one you would use to remove a dent from a car bumper) work?
     
  20. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Rubber mallet would work the best, and the quickest. The head is a larger target than the solar plexus. The rubber mallet shouldn't break the skin to any great degree. Its fairly common, doesn't require a lot of muscle, and the brain is fragile. Even if the first blow doesn't kill the person it should at least daze them long enough to get in a good killing blow.
    So if it wouldn't mess up your story I'd recommend going with the rubber mallet.
     
  21. Apples
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    Apples Member

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    Sounds perfect. Thanks a lot for the help, guys!
     

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