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  1. Bright Shadow
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    Bright Shadow Member

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    ebook piracy and the future of the professional writer

    Discussion in 'Publishing' started by Bright Shadow, Jun 9, 2011.

    It is no secret that ebooks have grown in popularity, and with them comes ebook piracy. Granted, ebook piracy has existed since the internet and scanners were born, but now, with so many ebook readers out there, the dynamic has changed.

    People like Neil Gaiman have said in the past that ebook piracy doesn't effect sales and actually increases their popularity and bring sales up. Well, that might have been the case five years ago when far fewer people had ebook readers. At that point, people may have gone ahead and downloaded a pirated copy, read it at their desktop as a preview, and went out and purchased a hard copy if they liked it. Now, they can just load it on their kindle and never have to buy the hard copy. In the last two years, the dynamic has changed.

    Please, don't say that ebook piracy has no effect. Authors have complained, like this example here:

    http://anywherebeyond.livejournal.com/342581.html

    Now, if someone OUT RIGHT SAYS that they downloaded a book illegally that they wanted to read, than that person has just admitted to not buying a book because they could get an illegal copy for free. There is no way that doesn't hurt the author.

    Then there are the comparisons to free libraries, lending a book, or used book stores. Well, first off libraries BUY the books they lend out, and if a book is popular they will buy more copies of it, hence the author gets a cut. And, if it is popular enough, the author might get a library award and recognition and hence, higher sales...when has a pirate site ever given an award for something?

    In the case of lending, that is just ONE copy of a book that has to be given back, and the person who borrowed it will probably have to buy a copy if they want to read it again. In the case of piracy, the person downloading the ebook illegally doesn't have to give it back and just owns a copy. Plus, if I loan a book to someone, that's just one book. If someone puts a book on a illegal site, that book could be downloaded by thousands of people.

    In the case of second hand book stores, a lot of those used books are actually purchased from major chains or publishers at a discount after they fail to sell at retail, and hence they do give profit to the author. That, and again it is a limited number of copies, not the unlimited amount of free downloads.

    So, piracy is a different animal. My concern is this:

    Music piracy can only hurt musicians so much because they can always perform live to recover the losses. No one will pay big money to see me write. Authors can ONLY MAKE money off of the product, and if the product is comprised...


    I always wanted to be a professional author...when I was six, that was what I wanted to do when I grew up, tell stories for a living. Hell, all I want financially is enough to afford a one bedroom apartment, a new Jeep Wrangler, and have enough left over to go out on the weekends. I'm content to not make JK Rowling money from writing (not that I would turn it down if it was offered ;) )

    But, if ebook piracy becomes as much an epidemic as music piracy, will it be possible to make any kind of living off of writing in the future?

    I'm worried about it, but in the end I have one hope: that ebook readers will never get as popular as MP3 players did, and they probably wont.

    Ipods replaced CD players because Ipods were a superior product. They never skipped, you no longer needed to carry a bunch of CDs, they were smaller etc. Ebook readers are a different story.

    No one whined about the loss of a "feel" of CDs, but people all the time, including Bill Gates himself, say they can't stand ebook readers because they don't have the "feel" of a book.

    When Ipods first came out, what did everyone do? They downloaded there CDs to Itunes. Well, with an ebook reader, you could, CONCEIVABLY, scan all your old books in, but that is A THOUSAND TIMES more of a process than uploading a CD.

    Plus, most people don't need to have more than three books with them at any time, even on a long trip. The average person will listen to five albums on an average day trip.

    The reasons are numerous. Ebook readers will grow in popularity, but for a sizeable chunk of the population, they will still want paper books. My grandfather, a mechanic and WWII vet, told me that people said that automatic transmissions would replace manuals and that he had better learn how to fix them. Well, years later, and how many sports cars have manual transmissions? Or trucks? Or cars? Some people like the feel of a stick, even if it is a hassle...a lot more of a hassle than reading a paper back as opposed to an ebook.


    So, most people will stick to paper. But, will that be enough of a market to make a living off of? With maybe 30% of the population having ebook readers and having an option of going to a pirate site and paying zero for something that might be $5, will that 30% of the market vanish?

    It is depressing as hell to think about.
     
  2. arron89
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    arron89 Banned

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    You compare ebook piracy to music piracy, but I think a comparison to film piracy is more apt. In general, piracy isn't having a huge impact on the film industry for two reasons: most people are willing to pay more money to see a film in theatres than on a small screen, and innovations like Netflix make it cheaper and easier to legally access films in private. It seems to me that publishing is going to go the same way. There will always be people who want a real book in their hand, just like there will always be people who want to go to the movies to see things. But publishers and authors need to be creative about how they access the personal market now more than ever. Authors like Neil Gaiman understand that the role of an author in the contemporary market isn't just to write books. Gaiman maintains a lively web presence, he speaks in public, he tries new and experimental ways of having a presence as an author in the 21st century. Granted, he's the exception not the rule at this point, but authors need to stop thinking of themselves as supplying a good and start thinking of themselves as service providers (as we're seeing happen with the video game industry as a result of piracy).

    There's no stopping piracy. It's just not possible. So, like Gaiman, authors and publishers need to accept it and respond in innovative ways to add value that pirates can't reproduce.
     
  3. The-Joker
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    The-Joker Contributing Member Contributor

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    The problem is that millions of readers are now leaning towards e-books and turning away from paperbacks. If an ebook is published it can be pirated and the pirated copy will be a direct duplicate of the original. So to the world at large that book that's on the kindle store for 8 dollars can now be downloaded for free in the exact same format. You're getting the same product at no charge and there is nothing that publishers can do to prevent this.

    Ebook piracy is not like movies at all. There is no cinema experience for ebook readers. It targets the ebook buyers and it in that respect this is exactly like music piracy and this will hurt sales very significantly. It's depressing.
     
  4. psychotick
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    psychotick Contributing Member Contributor

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    Hi,

    What about the Digital Rights Management thing I signed for my books? Isn'tthat supposed to be some sort of protection against piracy?

    Cheers.
     
  5. Declan
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    Declan Senior Member

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    This is a very interesting topic.
    It seems that book publishing will inevitably go just as electronic as music and film, but, as someone mentioned, I don't printed books will ever cease to be produced- like video tape. I understand that as technology progresses, things become irrelevant, but printed word is thousands of years old.
    I'd advise anyone interested in publishing that they understand that how electronic publishing will evolve, as it will.
    Piracy is obviously an issue though, I don't think libaries will sustain the professional author, but one must remember they are paid to give lectures, open bookstores, give interviews, give writing workshops and so on.
    Simple fact is though, people read less and less these days, for many reasons (dumbing-down television programmes, for one, I'm guessing), so sales will be hit anyway. I myself am studying to be a teacher so that I can support myself as a writer (and have long summers to write!).

    And again, nothing beats the feel of a book. I've been collecting books since last year, and have a nice little collection going)
     
  6. The-Joker
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    The-Joker Contributing Member Contributor

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    Piracy breaches the the rights of the owner. That's why it's called piracy.
     
  7. arron89
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    arron89 Banned

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    Media companies like to think DRM is protecting them, but it never works. As clever as it may seem, pirates can break DRM locks without much difficulty. All DRM really does is piss off people who purchase the work legally by placing severe limitations on how they can use it.
     
  8. tiggertaebo
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    tiggertaebo Member

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    Firstly it has to be accepted that you can't stop piracy of digital media, to all intents and purposes it can't be done. The music and movie industries have wasted millions trying when most 2nd year CompSci students could tell you that its a waste of time and money.

    What the publishing industry needs to do is learn from the early mistakes of the movie and music makers - the key is to make getting the legitimate copy the easy choice. IMO Amazon are already getting there with the Kindle - if I want a book and its already available in Kindle format it is rediculously easy to buy straight from the device and have it delivered to me in seconds. That's far more attractive to me then firing up my PC, searching for a torrent, waiting for the torrent to download, plugging the Kindle into USB and then using something like Calibre to convert it over. I'd much rather spend a few quid and save myself all the hassle.

    Areas where they need to focus IMO are on making sure that as much as possible is available in the correct format and that it is reasonably priced. Here in the UK eBooks can often work out more expensive then the hardcopy - partly because they get taxed and paper books don't but really for the most part those that are charging more for the eBook are just taking the mickey IMHO, the average customer can easily work out that digital distribution has lower overheads than paper and if they see their digital copy being more expenisve they are going to feel ripped off - and thats when they are going to start looking at piracy.
     
  9. arron89
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    arron89 Banned

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    Then we're not talking about piracy affecting book sales, which is what the OP seemed to be suggesting was inevitable. Physical books offer an experience that some consumers will pay for, rather than taking an ebook, free or otherwise. While piracy may affect some ebooks, but until tablets become more mainstream and accessible, I can't see it being a huge problem. People who buy ebook readers intend to buy ebooks; it isn't the same as having a general-use piece of hardware like a tablet (the iPad, for instance) and using that to pirate books. In any case, the situation certainly isn't as apocalyptic as the OP makes out.
     
  10. TWErvin2
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    TWErvin2 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I can say that my novel has been pirated, and I am certainly not a best seller--not even close.

    Has it affected sales? I have no idea--probably not by much. (Flank Hawk has settled into sales of about a copy a day through all the versions/platforms available). Has piracy increased interest in my works? Probably not. I don't see how the arguement that by being pirated, it will increase notice and sales? Who is the e-pirate going to tell but his online buddies if he liked the work he pirated? Will he then say, "Hey, go to Kindle or B&N or Smashwords or Kobo and download a copy to read"? I guess if the e-pirate posts a positive review of the stolen work, it might have a positive overall effect.

    Those websites that manage ebook piracy on a large scale...are they going to direct readers elsewhere?

    As has been discussed, if the works of an author are easily accessible and reasonably priced, I believe more readers will opt for the mainstream, legal route to obtain them. Does a store close up business because of a small percentage of those that visit, shoplift?

    I think that DRM (digital rights management) fustrates the regular folks trying to read and use their properly purchased e-books on a scale that makes any minimal effect DRM has on ebook pirates counter productive effort. As was indicated, they (the pirates) will get around DRM in short order. I could devise an analogy like above with respect to a regular store employing security, but I think folks get the point.

    The sense I get from readers is that since an ebook isn't a physical item, it should cost less than the print version. If publishers run with that notion, I think for the most part they'll keep the reader (consumer) happy and minimize the impact of ebook piracy.
     
  11. what the dickens
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    what the dickens Member

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    Well if your ebook has been "pirated" as you call it or as they would say "shared", it has been without your permission and most probably without payment to you. But on the good side, it must be considered to be a good read otherwise they wouldnt bother pirating/sharing it..........Sooooo you could say that they think it is from an Author who may be worth reading next time and even paying for the pleasure;):)

    To be honest everybody but everybody shares their paperbacks with friends which is exactly the same as pirating a copy of your ebook.

    The original ebook or paperbook has to be purchased so there is your sale and it may get shared how many times 5 or 10? What can you do about this? Answer absolutley nothing cause it will go on and has gone on for many many years ever since books were ever on sale.

    File sharing websites and similar you can do something about.
     
  12. tiggertaebo
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    tiggertaebo Member

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    Possible... but then if an author wants to use "free" copies of their works to encourage other readers there are already mechanisms for doing that with legitimate avenues. I downloaded a free book from amazon when I first got my kindle and subsequently bought the next 4 in the series. If someone go ta book for free from a sharing site and liked it chances are they will go back there for the next one.

    Only it's not "exactly the same" at all, in the same way that if I lend a DVD to a mate that is not the same as me making him a copy. What would be exactly the same would be lending the e-book to a friend - something most of the popular systems let you do now, admitedly it still has a way to go with regards being available in all regions and with all books but the mechanism is in place.
     
  13. what the dickens
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    what the dickens Member

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    I do understand what you are saying, but everybody must have "taped" the latest records from the radio and vinyl record or "video taped" the same record and band from the TV, also everybody must have "video taped" films from the TV aswell. Not to mention copying discs from from your friends cd collection.

    Sharing books is no different than sharing ebook files or other, but i admit it is wrong when people deliberately go online to reach as many people as possible to deliberately distribute a copyrighted item. This isnt then just lending to friends.
     
  14. Leonardo Pisano
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    This is nonsense, because the owner cannot enjoy the book until he has it back. It's the same as if you lend your car to your friend.

    An eBook can be a true copy.

    However, there are solutions but you have to worry about two things:
    1. The contents of the book (for c/p purposes.)
    2. Even if the content is protected against copying (eg by a password), the book can be forwarded in its entirety.

    Some DRM solutions link the ebook to the hardware of the purchaser, by a key. Then the book can be forwarded but without the key the receiver of the copy cannot be opened. See for instance www.locklizard.com.

    Like a normal safe where you put your valuable stuff in, you must realise that any protection only wins time. The value of its contents will determine if someone will try to hack it.
     
  15. popsicledeath
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    popsicledeath Banned

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    The fact you think most writers just sit back and get to be full-time novelists sort of undermines your entire argument. That's not how it works. Most writers, except for the elite few, don't make their money ONLY on their product. Most writers make extra money from readings, speaking engagements, leading workshops, doing interviews, writing articles or essays, and any number of 'real' jobs that are sometimes, but not always, related to the publishing industry.

    A writer is bound to find financial failure whether e-book piracy exists or not if they sit around thinking being a full-time fiction writer is what's going to pay their bills. Other things are usually required, e-book piracy or not.

    A writer doesn't worry if 10 extra people show up to a reading because they'd read the book from the library or gotten loaners from friends, and they surely don't complain if 20 more people pirated a copy of their book, but then liked it enough to support speaking engagements or workshops, as all these things build upon each other and sales alone can't be looked at in a vacuum as the only measure of success these days, especially when they're usually far from the only measure of revenue for the writer.

    In my opinion, as with all things writing-related, the quality of the work matters. If someone pirates a high-quality book, and likes it, my guess is they're then willing to 'risk' the money paying for future works. Piracy often only hurts people who suck at their 'art' as people pirate it as a form of testing the waters, and then chuck it and don't buy future work.

    The friends I have that pirate the most movies, also own the most movies. They just don't want to waste money on a movie that might suck. They also are the ones that become the biggest fans of the works they like the most, buying merchandise for movies they may have pirated at first, going to conferences where stars will be, buying works in other mediums by the same person/people.

    Entertainment industries these days aren't so easy as artist + product = success. Most artists will say you have to build a persona for yourself and then diversify, whether it's getting people to read your blog (monetized) or follow your other work or show up for appearances. It's far more just what you've sold in only one medium. And in fact it's to the point many artists, whether writers, painters, actors, filmmakers, will point to what they primarily started out by doing as simply a means to and end. No longer is becoming a writer what many writers who are successful were trying to do, but instead becoming a presence where they could then open the doors to many, often lucrative, opportunities.

    So, yeah, if you're sitting around hoping your e-book sales are the start and end of your illustrious career as a writer, then piracy will probably hurt, though in my opinion not even that much. If you're a good writer with savvy business sense, you're probably not worried at all, and maybe even a little encouraged as the more people who read your work, the more exposure, and exposure is king.
     
  16. Islander
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    Islander Contributing Member Contributor

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    Some people avoid piracy by simply offering up their work for free to the public, and make their money from related goods and services, like lectures, signed copies and performances.

    Depending on how generous you feel, you can allow people to copy but not modify your work, to create derived works, to only use it for non-commercial purposes, etc. Over on the Creative Commons website you can find licenses for different purposes which you can attach to your works:

    http://creativecommons.org
     
  17. Bright Shadow
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    Bright Shadow Member

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    I agree. I will never get an ebook reader because I've seen them, played with them for awhile, and just can't get used to reading off of a little screen that doesn't have two pages on either side. I read TO GET AWAY from a screen. Just as Google Earth didn't replace vacationing in Alaska, I don't think ebooks will replace physical books.

    I don't think tablets are going to stay around for much longer. They remind me of the PDA, and how phones replaced them when they got more sophisticated. The whole tablet thing started with the Ipad, which was simply the result of intense marketing on the part of Apple. Everything a tablet can do a phone or a laptop can do, only they can do it much more conveniently. For the most part, I thing tablets are a fad. Smart phones are the future of mobile technology...a computer you can put in your pocket. Pads, however, don't fit in your pocket, are too small to work as well as a laptop, and just exist in a middle space that doesn't really need to exist.

    Fortunately, even the most hard core ebook reader will admit that reading an ENTIRE NOVEL on a little smart phone screen would suck.

    That is one good thing about ebooks. If you don't own an ebook reader, the ebook can't be enjoyed, except maybe at a laptop. It's not like music, where if you don't own a Ipod or a phone that stores music you can always just burn the CD. Go ahead, try to print a ebook or PDF, you'll end up spending more on ink than the book would ever cost and you'll still have an vastly inferior product as compared to a real novel.
     
  18. Bright Shadow
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    They said the same thing about music when Napster first showed up. They said that "people will buy more albums if they can download them first". Well, years later and has the music industry benefited from piracy?

    I already showed that it isn't.

    Like I already said, a paperback can get passed around, but it is just one paper back. If someone borrows my copy of "Changes" by Jim Bucther and doesn't give it back, but I want to read it again, I have to buy another one. But, if I COPY it and put it one a pirate site, that file can be downloaded by thousands of people while I still have the original, and NO ONE has to buy a copy for themselves. A shared book is only read once and given back and if someone wants it but can't have it, the person doing the borrowing has to buy it. If a pirate owns a copy they downloaded from a pirate site, they NEVER have to buy another copy.
     
  19. popsicledeath
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    popsicledeath Banned

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    No, but many artists claim they themselves have...

    The thing is, the music industry is made up of artists and record companies. Many artists have claimed piracy has benefited them greatly, while many record companies claim it has hurt them. Of course the record companies aren't happy, though, as they've never been happy as profits move away from them, and more directly to the artists, which is what many have claimed/shown what has happened.

    Similarly, I don't see the potential of e-book piracy as hurting the writers, so much as the publishers. Is it a bad thing that potential profits may be shifted from the publishers to writers? I dunno, I suppose yes, for the publishers, though only if they themselves can't adapt. And that's the complaints if you look at it, publishers, usually big houses, essentially complaining that business as usually aren't producing profits as usual. Boo-freakin'-hoo. Meanwhile, smart publishers and shrewd writers are finding more opportunities for profits coming directly to them, instead of to/through the publishing houses who for many years had a stranglehold on the industry and are now seeing that slip, and of course our pissed.

    I'm not personally worried, though, and imo new writers looking to break into the industry should be excited, though I suppose only if they're a good writer (quality always wins the day in the long run), understand the importance of building a presence, and have more skills than simply sitting in a room writing (meaning are good at readings, public speaking, editing, teaching, blog/article writing, textbook writing etc).

    Sure, gone are the days you become a darling of the big publishing house and get to do nothing but write a novel a year (or 6 months, depending). But, far more opportunities exists for writers these days, so the publishing house teet is no longer the only way to make a living. Being able to diversify and branch out has always been a boon for writers, it's just now you don't even have to start out with traditional expectations to get your foot in the door like before, and these opportunities are available to any writer who can manage it, not just those already propped up on the pedestal of traditional publishing.
     
  20. Bright Shadow
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    Oh, my argument was "ebook piracy and the future of the PROFESSIONAL writer," not "ebook piracy and the future of the guy who writes short stories in his spare time" or "ebook piracy and the future of the part time writer" or "ebook piracy the future of the guy who somehow managed to get one novel that sucked published and it bombed and he never got published again."


    It is the goal of most writers to get to a point when they can be part of a "elite few" who make a living off of writing.

    I have heard the "art for art sake" argument before and it's lame. If I knew there was no chance I would ever make money off of writing, I would delete my word processing program and never write a thing again. I like writing, but without a potential, however small, of getting financially compensated for it, I wouldn't bother with writing.



    The problem is that pirates usually don't buy something unless they want quality. A ebook is an ebook, and quality isn't a factor. Someone might buy a HD blue ray of a movie they downloaded or see a 3D movie in a cinema instead of a big screen, but an ebook is an ebook is an ebook. Once it's pirated there is no need to buy the real thing.


    Like I said it's a different experience.
    So in other words, literature takes a back seat to being a pop culture icon? That is sad. Could you imagine a world where Jack London had to make dump commercials? Where H.P. Lovecraft had to blog about Hollywood gossip in the hopes that enough people would click on the links to the H&M store in the corner that he would get enough add dollars to get by? A world where F.Scott Fitzgerald had to make four dozen personal appearance at cheesy restaurants a year?

    Like I said, I have no real interest in being a millionaire. I just would like to be able to make a living off of writing some day.


    That's like Nike not being concerned if people steal sneakers because they will where them and expose people to the product.
     
  21. Bright Shadow
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    Again, this is not a fair comparison. Musicians make money by record sales AND live shows, while writers make money by writing books. As I already said, nowhere near the amount of people who like a pirated ebook will pay to see an author in person as will pay to see a performance of a band whose albums they pirated.
     
  22. popsicledeath
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    popsicledeath Banned

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    Yes, that is your assumption, and it's actually wrong.

    Not only do musicians often do far more to make money (like having day jobs, lol) than just sell albums and do live shows, but writers too make money, usually out of need, by doing far more than just writing.

    You seem to be taking the elitist view that many aspiring writers have that their genius as a writer alone should entitled or enable them a livable wage. It's just not reality. Writers have always usually had to do more than just sit around being writers all day, unfortunately.

    Your threat of e-book piracy is based on this false assumption writers will suddenly have to get second jobs, when the reality is actually the opposite, writers have always had to have other means of support, and the benefits of e-books and the changing landscape of publishing is actually opening far more opportunities than e-book piracy is threatening.

    Well, it's a good thing these aren't the only ways for artists to make money, especially writers!


    No offense, but you seem more concerned with being right and having others agree with you than actually considering and learning about the industry. Nothing wrong with that, of course, as it is the internet!
     
  23. what the dickens
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    Deleted as didnt make sense.
     
  24. popsicledeath
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    popsicledeath Banned

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    Ah, so your argument is in favor of the very few writers who manage to make a full-time living wage from fiction writing alone? By some sources less than 500 writers in America...

    With an argument of such limited relevance, then I suppose there's little point in worrying.
     
  25. Mist Walker
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    As far as I'm aware, any lending or reproduction without permission of a book is illegal. Libraries (at least in the UK) go about this a different way by paying authors when they lend books. But the difference between lending a paper copy and making the work available to everyone on the internet is scale if we're going for legality, or culture if we're going for morals.

    Morals first: the copyright laws were produced in response to technology progressing. They weren't formalised until computers were becoming common. Books have been around a lot longer than that and so nobody actually cares about the fact that lending your friend across the road a book isn't legal. Nobody cares because they don't see it as wrong, we've been doing it since before the law was passed and when the law was passed it was with the intention of dealing with other things, this was a by-product.

    Legality: it blurs. The publishers have every right to prosecute people who lend, resell or reproduce their work. But they don't. They don't get at people for lending because you'll have a tough time convincing a jury or judge to severely punish someone for the first two if you can even prove it happened. The legal costs would be more. The reproduction and distribution (ie. piracy) is a lot more harmful. Someone puts up a book which makes them a profit of £3 and then 10,000 people download it the publishers see themselves as having lost £30,000. Of course, they haven't, not all of those 10,000 downloads were going to have been bought if they didn't have a chance to, but in their eyes it's beside the point. So is the fact that they could probably have earned more money by accepting a profit of 50p per book. I read about a case where a woman in the US was fined an obscene amount for file sharing four songs on the internet. It could be done, because they managed to trace her, most of the time they can't so don't. And I remember in this case they didn't want the huge fine either because they wanted to deter piracy, not make the fine so stupid nobody would care.

    What it means for the industry though, I'm not sure. I imagine it comes down to how widespread/popular eBooks are going to get and beyond that how rife the piracy becomes within it. Somebody's already said they think reading is on the downturn, I think that the people who aren't reading are also a lot of those most likely to be pirating. I know it's a slightly elitist view, but I do find it's the case. To the best of my knowledge, only one person I know who downloads a lot of music illegally also reads a reasonable amount, and I'm not even sure if that's still the case. We've got a divide on the type of people, at least among teenagers.

    I won't myself download music illegally, partially because I know that it's stealing, partially because I know I wouldn't want my writing to be treated the same way if I ever get it out there, and partially because I reckon the quality's lower. I'll swap music with friends and rip the music off a borrowed CD, but I refuse to go to the file sharing sites.

    I'm less certain about how I think of television. I would much, much rather watch it on TV than the internet. But when the channel's stopped showing it or when they were showing it they repeated and continued so unpredictably I gave up, I'll go for the internet. I feel less guilt with this because, well, we've paid for the television, I just didn't get the chance to watch it. The only people I feel like I'm cheating are the companies advertising on television (I do love having the BBC for this, and Sky+ for being able to skip the adverts).

    So I think it's very much wrong to pirate the books. Unfortunately that does nothing when plenty of people will ignore that you can't get around it. So I don't think it will cripple the industry tooooo much, but it won't be good for it.

    And, writer's making money in ways other than writing. I wouldn't consider that to be part of the publishing industry like the original post included.
     
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