I know it's bad to double-dip, but really. You're leaving because a few people went against your claim? I'm sorry to say, this was a civil meaningful discussion before you dubbed it otherwise. No one here tried to attack you with ill-intent, they were just trying to make you see that the context of a conversation is important rather than to jump on him and call him a fool for disagreeing with our personal beliefs. The way you went about starting this thread made us believe that you wanted to discuss the preofessor and what he believes rather than ask what we think about first-person point of view in fiction. I understand that backstory is good, but you showed bias towards your professor and that caused a reaction. None of us have tried to drive you out of here, we were discussing your professor and his beliefs with only one side of the story to write about. But good luck trying to have a "civil" meaningful discussion with anyone else on the INTERNET. Though it is very much possible, the chances of that won't be in your favour.
(Sigh) Not the first time a thread has gotten away from an OP and not the last. Her sudden exit makes me wonder why she posted it in the first place. I mean, what kind of responses was she expecting to get?
Is it just me or was that quite an overreactive response to something completely harmless? No one was attacking her as I could see it, we were just giving our opinions, which I thought was what she asked for...or did I miss something here?
No, all in all I thought it was quite calm. Then again, people often ask opinions and then find they didn't actually want them.
You are right I mean, it's one thing you can be sure of; if you post a question in a forum you will get all kinds of replies. maybe it was the question that was wrong and not the answers...
The profession isn't entirely wrong, but he isn't entirely right either. There are a lot of badly written novels in the first person POV. There are also good ones like Glen Cook's The Black Company novels. No need to jump aboard the hate train because a professor said something controversial. Generally, I agree with the professor because most first person novels are written badly. They feel more like a fulfillment of the author's personal fantasy than a well told story. I won't even touch vampire novels anymore because of this. It took me forever to even read The Black Company.
I did. . . . Let me explain why. His statement wasn't that 1st Person PoV is an easier form, but if done right can be very entertaining. Yet most don't do it properly. His statement was: "All Novels done in 1st Person PoV are for amateurs and skilled writers can do it fine, but the only people who use 1st Person PoV are not skilled" . . . Reasons why I jumped on that Hate Train while drinking my Hateorade and....Alright, not funny! Anyways! 1. This man has a diploma, he goes to a college and represents himself as someone who should be listened to and followed. He didn't state what he did, based on the OP, his opinion; instead he stated what he did as a fact which his class should follow. -> You discourage people when you state facts like that, as he did to the OP and that I find is out of the scope of his job as a Proffessor of anything. Especially when he puts forth his opion as fact. -> Above all else, he's just contradicting himself. -> Bad Teachers(Like Him) can get tenure and spout whatever garbage they want to and the students then grow up believing this as the way things are. ~-~-~-~ You see, the difference between me and him is that I'm just some nobody posting my opinion on a thread. Yes, he gets judged harshly as he puts himself out there to be judged when he teaches his students trash like that. State it as your opinion...OR....QFT! /opinion!
I read through some of the other posts and I don't see any one bashing you directly. True there are some that bash the professor but there are a few (in defense of your professor) that state that we can't make judgments about your professor on one statement. Maybe there was a reply that was deleted that I did not read. I am not sure why you are so up set. If it was something I said, I am sorry. All I wanted to know was the context of the conversation.
Your professor was, of course, exagerating a bit. Its easy to write poorly in first person and difficult to write well. Just for fun, here are a few well-known opening lines written in first person by writers who've mastered the art. I'll leave it up to you to identify the writers and works. 1. "Call me Ishmael." 2. "In the late summer of that year we lived in a house in a village that looked across the river and the plain to the mountains." 3. " In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since. " 4. "It was the day my grandmother exploded." 5. "Whether I shall turn out to be the hero of my own life, or whether that station will be held by anybody else, these pages must show." 6. "You don't know about me without you have read a book by the name of The Adventures of Tom Sawyer; but that ain't no matter" 7. "If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, and how my parents were occupied and all before they had me, and all that David Copperfield kind of crap, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth." 8. "Through the fence, between the curling flower spaces, I could see them hitting." 9. "It was a queer, sultry summer, the summer they electrocuted the Rosenbergs, and I didn't know what I was doing in New York." 10. "All this happened, more or less. The war parts, anyway, are pretty much true. One guy I knew really was shot in Dresden for taking a teapot that wasn't his." Try to identify as many as possible without resorting to Google. If you're well-read, you should be able to get most of them. Have fun!
Teachers often have to simplify in order to convey the best advice for students at a particular level. Sometimes that comes down to statements that seem outrageous to those who know a bit more about the topic. Trying to present a fully balanced answer will lead to a muddled, confusing explanation from the perspective of a novice student. It's far better to present a black and white, but not entirely accurate, picture than an explanation that reads like the Uniform Criminal Code of California. Once the student can operate within a restricted framework, the teacher can begin to introduce the intracacies. Most novice writers are better off avoiding first person narrative until they have a solid grasp on third person. Many of the descriptive techniques of third person will help the developingh writer avoid the "Aye yi yi!" (I, I, I) syndrome that can kill first person writiing. Seems to me the professor overstated his case, but was still offering good advice for a new writer. I see no point in villifying the professor.
Personally, I can't stand reading 1st person novels (Twilight, Percy Jackson, The Hunger Games comes to mind). Unless a writer can pull it off really well, I usually cannot get past the first page. I think I also have that stigma attached to it of it being amateurish. (or maybe it's just these writers that just can't do it for me). But that's just my opinion. That being said, I don't believe there is any problem writing in first person. I enjoyed Paper Shadows by Wayson Choy. It's in first person, and I think Mr. Choy made the right choice in using 1st person. First, Second, or Third -- whatever works with what you are trying to accomplish in your novel.
I had that stigma too. I will never forget my first experience reading a book in first person that was done badly. Not only did I immediately dislike the book, but I remember thinking that the writing felt armature-y. I really remember thinking that and I had to be like 15 or younger at time. And what is ironic about that situation is that wasn't my first time reading first person. I read Huckleberry Finn and To Kill A Mockingbird and a few others and loved them but never made the distinction that it was a different perspective. It was so natural and written so wonderfully that I didn't think about the perspective the stories were written in. But after reading that other book - I distinctly remember thinking I hated first-person because I was so displeasing and it was so wrong that I felt like it was my first experience with it, which wasn't true, but it left such an impression that it made me notice the technical style of writing when most others were done so well that I don't think made the distinction of first versus third. Anyway, I no longer hold that stigma. It's a great tool, especially when you can really flesh out the character and make them talk according to their time periods and environment.
Well, at least the professor made an impression on you and woke up the people sleeping in the back row. I guess, like people have said, he was exaggerating in order to encourage you not to use first person, at least while you are still learning. Even if he was generalizing, there's an important grain of truth there. It really is better for learners to keep off first person imo.
I've heard that before, too. From my high school English teacher. I find first-person very difficult to do, mainly because my stories tend to call for scenes without the main character. Third person omniscient is the easiest to me, because I find all the others so limiting. Maybe I prefer it because I like to think I know everything. Or that I'm a bit of a control freak.
My personal preference, in general, is that I can not stand novels written in first person. I won't read a book written this way. Every time I try, I end up annoyed and do not finish the book. I would probably enjoy some of the Anita Blake stories written by Laurell K. Hamilton, but I simply can not get past her first person writing. I just don't find it believable that the writer is supposed to be the main character. Only once did I manage to finish a novel written this way; and it was a lovely, steamy, trashy romance. So, maybe your professor had a point. I know others who do no enjoy reading first person. It is also not the most common POV to use nor is it the POV most people feel comfortable reading. I doubt he is the first (or only) professor to say something along those lines regarding writing from the first person POV. If you Google around author and writing websites, I think you will find that most agree that it is new writers who tend to go with first person POV. They will also make the point that it brings with it more challenges. However, I don't agree with the professor, that only amateurs write this way, as Ms. Hamilton is not an amateur. I also don't agree that only experienced writers can pull it off, because I don't feel that Ms. Hamilton pulls it off. Though I am sure a gazillion of her fans will disagree with me. Actually, the first couple of sentences of your post are contradictory. He (your professor) first says only inexperienced writers use first person because it is easy ... and then that only experienced writers can pull it off. Obviously some writers, both inexperienced and experienced, use first person. I think it is a matter of taste and choice. Writing is a very personal thing. Be yourself.
Please do not post your guesses on James' opening lines, in order to keep the thread on topic. You can use google to verify your guesses. The point that there ARE such novels is on topic. Playing the game of guessing which novel each came from is not. Any further discussion of the game will be (and have been) removed, as it was hijacking the thread.
My own take on James' post was that literary classics are, by definition, timeless, and therefore should transcend short term trends or styles. Which is not to say that if one wrote something akin to "Moby Dick" or "The Great Gatsby" today, they would succeed in getting it published. I think it is that very notion that often drives the "art vs. commercial success" debates that many of us here have grown to regard with disdain. James' list shows the very best work that's been done in 1st person, proving that it can be done well but also providing a cautionary note that one needs to know what one is doing before trying it on.
I strongly disagree with your professor. First person isn't everyone's cup of tea, that's true, but to generalize and say it's the "easiest" to write, only "amateurs" do it, is pure BS. First person, in my humble opinion, is actually one of the hardest voices to write well. I've been writing for years but I always wrote in third person - I am only now finally attempting first person voice in a novel. Right now, I can think of TONS of great books written in first person, well-written and popular books, too (Try reading Water for Elephants, for example - one of the best written books I've read, all first person). Skill is key, I'm still honing mine.
Well in a way he makes sense, things that make first person more "easy" First off its their perspective only which means the person who we are viewing form is our only gate way to whats going on, as such you don't need to tell us what George did over there during a fight, while you can after words it would be in conversation with said first person, person, which IMO can really help as when you explain something you often do not give all details, now you have less detail which for a lot of pepole is a huge plus in terms of "easy". Another thing is that the story teller is not all knowing, In third person we see all that happens and get in to others thoughts and what not , with first person you do not or at least not with out them having a conversation or if your MC is a telepathic, which again saves a lot of time as you do not need to write what the others think or even their reactions, note i said don't have to dose not mean you should not. one of the biigist is filling plot holes this might not be well received but a lot of first person books love to have another person do something off page, so you don't have to worry about "how" the person did it, this can be a great way to fill plot holes like for example: in Star Wars when Luke blows up the Death Star it is never told how Ben was able to talk form the dead as we have never seen anything like that before or after (not counting Ben doing it again ect) but again with first person there is no way for them to really know how this happen so then the readers can justifiably be left in the dark on "how this happened" IMO opens a good way to fill plot holes. Personalty, When it comes down to it first person simply makes it a lot less hard to make a 2nd person in the world as you almost never see more then the "outside of them", and there are lots more but these are some of the biggest ones i can think of. All in all that seems very "beginner" compared to third person. Remember the professor said that its "for" beginners but only the masters can pull it off well? While maybe not the best choice of words, I'm sure we all at one time or another have said soemthing like that with out meaning to. Imo he is right in the way I understood his words Beginners will use it to not have to worry about how David defeated the Red Army, while masters will use it to relate a story and maybe set up a squeal following him. Beginner will not give you much insight to the other person thoughts while a master will give sutler hints like the MQ seeing a clinched fist or reading a letter ect. Beginners will not give much details to a specific room leaving in only the points the main guy is looking at, a Master will skillfully move the MC in till the whole room is seen and gives details that a beginner would say they don't need. So what he is saying is that Beginners are drawn to it cause it cuts down on stuff while masters use it with out cutting out that stuff Thats how I read it anyways
