I know a lot of people in the martial arts/self-defense circles around here (ranging from karate black belts to MMA competitors to military CQB instructors) and some of those guys have shoves for hands, like, for real, and punch hard enough to send a tank flying to the moon, so while they might crack a knuckle against a forehead, the recipient's lights will likely go out altogether, so if you have time to make the decision and the move to headbutt an incoming fist, you probably have time to move your head out of the way or bring up your hands so regardless of whether the headbutting the fist-suggestion was made in jest or not, I'd advise against it. What's a kidney shot? I know a liver shot, but... something executed from behind your opponent? Btw, as far as watching MMA bouts for ideas for describing street fights go, well, you can get some idea of what works and what doesn't, but a lot of the things that work in the ring don't transfer well on the street (jumping guard anyone?), so I'd advocate searching YouTube for street fights to add a touch of realism to your scenes if you don't have first-hand experience yourself.
I'm probably late to the punch here but, if you still need information, I have a lot. I train and instruct Krav Maga, a martial art today based in Israel but originating in Czechoslovakia. It was designed to teach Jews how to ward off the roving gangs of Nazi supporters. It was designed in the worst possible scenario; you have to learn to fight very quickly, you are facing an attacker that has no rules and will take great pleasure in killing you and you have to be just as brutal to survive. Krav Maga ends up looking like a polished version of street fighting. There are no rules and many of it's attacks can kill an opponent within seconds if necessary. Go on YouTube and watch a street fighter tear a Kung Fu master apart. I, on the other hand, am trained to defeat that street fighter. Instead of learning everything by being in dozens or hundreds of fights, I learned it from a trained instructor that served in the French Foreign Legion and worked all over the world after that as a private contractor. His father was a partisan that learned directly from the progenitors and survived Auschwitz. Primary strikes/targets - eyes, nose, throat, sternum, groin. Secondary strikes/targets - joints. Tertiary strikes/targets - elbows, open hand, kicks, knees. This is the hierarchy of attacks in a street fight. Sport fighters never stand a chance against a street fighter because they simply aren't trained to deal with someone that doesn't have any rules. It's also why I can pin someone trained in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in a matter of seconds, even though their focus is ground fighting and mine is fighting on two feet. I don't have rules - he does.
BJJ is not tailored for self-defence per se (though by no means hinders one's abilities to protect themselves). Just like you don't go to a muay thai club to learn self-defense. In sports, there're no eye-gauging or fish-hooking (BJJ has its own set of "dirty tricks" though). If one is pitted against a BJJ practicioner on the street, they probably won't "fight fair" either. I think when writing a scene, the writer has to take into account a lot of details even though the scene will be short. Take a dark winter night, icy pavement, puffy winter coats and scarves. The fight can easily end up on the ground because of unstable footing. The neck and even the chin can be partially protected by a scarf. What if you wear mittens? Granted, thumbs in the eyes might still work. Legal and illegal substances also play a big role, and are often present in street brawls. And many men seem to have an uncanny ability to avoid that hallowed kick in the nuts. That can certainly be the case in some situations. But many sport fighters also cross-over and pay attention to the self-defense side of things. My previous Maga instructor was the European Champ in kick-boxing.
Martial Arts theres a useful link a basic structure of H2H combat, id research further from this. i used this to decide which was im going to head after getting black in Shotokan
The fact that BJJ is not tailored to self defense was part of the point. This is very true, more than you know. However, I can turn all of that to my advantage very easily. Whereas my opponent will most likely be punching me (this is true in approximately 90% of cases) and striking a bunch of padding, I will switch to grabs and throws. Jackets are generally very easy to grab and scarves can be used for choking and pulling people off balance. If I think I won't be able to stay standing, I will force the opponent to the ground either on my terms or flip my opponent and take the top position within two to three seconds of hitting the ground. This can be done on a slippery surface without pressure points and the bulky clothing will not have any affect. I can do a detail description of this, if you'd like. Again, very true. Which is why at the low end I'm trained to immobilize and hold and at the high end I'm trained to dislocate, break and kill. If I'm facing an attacker that I simply have no way of defeating with simple pins, I will break several of his limbs in order to prevent him from being able to chase after me - likely both legs at a minimum. If there are multiple attackers in such a state, my chances of survival only go up if I am willing to kill. There's several tricks to that. First, most people have little 'tells' when they are about to attack. We are biologically programmed to recognise these. With training, you can eliminate these 'tells'. The groin strike isn't always necessarily a kick; it is, in fact, not even preferable. The best groin strike is a backhand. It is harder to recognize, moves a lot faster and can transition into other attacks more easily. The groin strike works just as well on a woman as it does on a man. I have respect for such fighters. Most, however, do not do this. We try to cross train with sport fighters all the time and they always refuse. We will sometimes attract a few of their students, but the vast majority stick to their sport while (in my experience) maintaining a mindset that they are learning self defense.
I should also make a second note of who my instructor is. His father was a partisan that learned from the progenitors; he was French Foreign Legion that has served as a private contractor all of the world, including for the Israelis. I'm trained at a much higher level than most other Krav Maga instruction.
Yeah, I kind of suspected that, but another reason why I mentioned it was that people have some confusion about RBSD and combat sports in relation to hand to hand. Definitely. This is exactly what I meant by how much little details can affect the situation and why writers have to take it all into account. This is a good point, something that might not occur to many writers when they think how to choreograph an H2H scene. True, hence the drip of sarcasm there, because the most common reply to "what would you do if someone pounced you?" from a layman is: "I'd kick him in the balls." Yeah, that's gonna solve all your problems. Wow, Foreign Legion! That's always interested me a lot (though I believe they still won't accept women), so much so I had to write a character who's serving in FFL... the story is still at a draft stage, but I loved doing research about it and I'll be getting back to it after the current WIP is revised.
Good point, my bad. Very true. Little details like this always turn me off of the fight scene in books where modern hand to hand combat occurs. I always feel like I'm reading about amateurs that took two weeks of boxing instruction. It's also why I posted the offer of information. I know those details very intimately and am trained to look for them. Oh so true! He's actually responsible for the Legion switching it's hand-to-hand combat style after he threw his instructors around like small children.
So you won't mind if me and my writing partner/husband (with the nickname T.Trian here) pester you with some questions at some point? That's one thing I have wondered about, actually, e.g. how does the hand to hand combat system they use compare to e.g. what US Marine Corps uses. In Finland (my home country) it's taught and overseen by a Krav Maga instructor -- at least for the ground forces. Unfortunately a lot of FFL and its practices still seem to be shrouded in mystery
Heh heh, not at all! I'm an instructor because I enjoy it, after all! The way my instructor explained it to me, they switched primarily to Krav Maga. I will double check with him when I get the chance.
There seems to be no shortage of answers However, i have spent many many years practising Self-Defence and martial arts at both a competitive and recreational level. Firstly. A woman (or anybody) who has no experience fighting, but has been taught - will not do particularly well. They are likely to go on instincts (scratching, batting etc) rather than what they learned. Why? Because when they learn they are usually in a controlled environment, with a co-operative partner to 'test' the moves on. A woman who has experience fighting (Competitively or from experience) is going to conduct themselves much better in a fight, and is more likely to put teachings into practice. The moves they are likely to use vary a lot depending on the Art they trained in. A Boxer/kickboxer (although more of a sport, is still a form of defence) is going to go into a quite obvious fighting stance and strike. Somebody who has trained in BJJ is more likely to go low, and prepare to tackle opponent to the floor - somebody trained in traditional JJ is likely to look for a loose arm or opening to administer a lock Judo will look for a throwing opportunity etc etc As for fighting multiple opponents, different Arts train you in different ways. A true master will always seek to avoid it at all costs, obviously because it is messy. However, if you are wanting to glamorise it for the sake of a book, a lot of Arts will try and get you using locks to enable you to use one of your assailants as a 'shield' as such, or use them to throw into other assailants and get away. As much as the movies might like you to think - in uncontrolled circumstances on the street, it's extremely unlikely that you will be able to drop 8-9 people with ease!!! Another thing to consider is improvised weapons. Somebody well trained will spot these and use them to their advantage. It's crude to use this as an example, but a stick or brick would come in very handy. As for the ''what areas to hit'' i'll briefly summarise, because it honestly does depend what they were trained in. Pressure points - No, unless they happen to have about 60 years experience!!!!!! Throat - Some Arts striking the throat Torso - Winding the opponent is one of the quickest ways to end a fight. Nobody can focus on fighting if they can barely breathe One thing to consider is if the Assailants are trained themselves, as they will likely cover these areas. That's all i have - it's a VERY subjective question, with a lot of possible answers to it, and some better than others depending on the circumstances of the 'fight'! If you have any specific questions just elaborate in a pm - and i'll give you (hopefully) a more tailored response thats relevant to your scene Edit: read some more of your replies, i am no instructor by any means, so depending on what you want to know, i'll just outline some of my experience to see if it's relevant to what you are interested in 5 Years of Traditional Jiu-Jitsu 5 Years of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 8 Years of boxing (with experience Kick-boxing) A few years of Shotokan Karate Several organised street fights which i did for money about 4 years ago (Nothing to be proud of, but it could be relevant to you) Several encounters in gang fights, fighting outnumbered (sometimes coming off better than others) Despite all this, i have not 'mastered' and martial arts, but have a LOT of practical relevant experience in fighting. Is that what you are more looking for?
Hmm... Celtika, I'd have to disagree when you say, "A woman (or anybody) who has no experience fighting, but has been taught - will not do particularly well." In most cases, I think you're correct. But, my Krav Maga group has a great deal of success in training instinctual reactions. We actively teach people to do moves without thinking. Due to this, I have nearly harmed people on a few occasions myself, simply reacting to what my mind was interpreting as a potentially hostile action. Best example was a 13 year old kid that tried to sneak up on me. I whipped around and nearly gave her an elbow shot to the face, stopping myself just in time. I will stress though that in MOST CASES Celtika is right. For some reason, women seem have a harder time picking up these instinctual actions. Proper training does eventually break that barrier and our techniques do create the instincts that traditionally come from experience only. But our training is very unique and very hard to come by.
I thought I'd chime in and address this: Not sure if they do it any more, but heavyweight boxers during the 50's would often work the their opponent's kidneys. Reaching around with hooks into the opponent's flanks. I heard about it in a documentary, an italian-american boxer hospitalised Ali, though I believe lost the match. I got the vibe he was considered a somewhat dirty fighter, because the blows are delivered when they do that cuddling thing before the fighters are broken up by the ref. I believe the kidneys are quite close to the skin and have very little protection, and executing a powerful kidney shot from behind I think can kill a person relatively easily (providing they do not get medical treatment). "Karate? What, the dane cook of martial arts. We study Krav Maga." - Stirling Archer EDIT: Krav Maga related anecdote: An old friend of mine's brother studied it, and apparently broke a guy's jaw in an internet cafe. - A world of warcraft related incident.
Interesting thread, but the smell of testosterone and BS is sometimes overpowering. Here are a couple of things you might want to keep in mind. Unless there is a personal grudge, you are extremely unlikely to be attacked by a trainer fighter. 90% of 'fights' today, involve untrained/half trained 20 somethings, who are full of drink/drugs/testosterone, and usually egged on by 'friends'. They often begin with a sucker-punch, and most fights last for less than a minute. He won't start fighting till he's done talking. Hit him before he finishes. A 'haymaker' is the sign of an amateur. Short, fast, co-ordinated punches are the most effective. Stay calm. Tense muscles are slow muscles. You can't react quickly when you're tense. Anyone who adopts a 'stance' is an idiot. Hands are quicker than feet. Amateurs will often begin their attack with a kick, because they don't know how to close the distance to hit you. Keep all kicks below the waist, preferably from the knee down. Someone who pulls a knife before the confrontation, definitely wants to cut you. If he pulls it as an afterthought, he is likely to use it defensively. A big guy is much more likely to want to get to grips and man-handle you, than someone of your own size or lighter. Going to ground is very risky, and should be a last resort. Once you are down, you are vunerable to any bystander who decides to join in. It's a fight. You will get hit. Some people are completely shocked when they get hit. In their mind, they are the ones doing all the hitting. Sparring is good, because it teaches you to stay focussed, even when you're hit hard.
Numbers added by me. 1. I'd have to say it depends on how she's trained and in what way. If it's somebody who has trained and been taught well at a good RBSD school, she will likely do very well in a street confrontation, because the good RBSD systems also teach the mental, psychological, and social side of self-defense: how to deal with and overcome (or benefit from) the effects of adrenaline, i.e. they will go through grueling high-pressure drills in class with hard contact, so she knows not only how to throw, but how to take a hit, how to move when dealing with more than one assailant, how to use and fight against weapons of several kinds (hopefully also carries some that she can use) etc. She will also be taught about awareness and avoidance, how to use the fence and other similar "tools," default positions (vertical / horizontal elbows, the cow catcher, the spear etc), how to manipulate her antagonist's adrenaline levels, the observations of possible onlookers etc. A fit, strong girl who has trained like this is likely to do very well in a real fight, much better than her untrained counterpart. 2. That's more of a ring thing, isn't it? Working your opponent's body over the course of a 12-round boxing match is one thing (think Ali vs. Frazier), doing the same in a 3-second street confrontation is quite another, especially for a girl/woman who can't throw a liver shot quite as hard as Vladimir Klitchko (who also has the 12 rounds to do it instead of 3 seconds, the average length of a street fight). Ah, now I get it. Thanks. Kidney shots can cause some bad damage, yes, but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness in the context of a street fight where you need to put your opponent down quickly. Ali ate dozens and dozens of Frazier's kidney shots in their 15-round fight but still didn't go down. Granted, the fight practically ended Ali's career, but as I said above, you don't usually have that kind of time in a street fight, and I, for one, probably don't hit quite as hard as Frazier, and if he couldn't drop his opponent with dozens of kidney shots, why would I succeed with one or two? Hence I wouldn't use it on the street. The same goes for the liver shot: you can drop guys with it, wind them down, so it's great, but on the street... since there's no guarantee one or two shots will do the trick (you might not get a second chance, esp. if you're fighting more than one guy), I'd rather rely on techniques that will finish the fight fast, like a hard hook to the side of the jaw/chin. Again, numbers added by me. 1. That's sound advice. It's always best to be pre-emptive (action beats reaction and all that). 2. I'm not so sure about the latter part of your statement. I know Geoff Thompson and Peter Consterdine would disagree. One of Thompson's tenets is "hit first and hit fucken' hard!" He explains that according to his (and that of his martial arts / bouncer friends) observations while working the doors of Coventry pubs and night clubs, accuracy, timing, and power are more important than speed. That's where the psychological side comes in, that's why he always asks a question before he goes for the pre-emptive doomsday punch to the recipient's jaw in order to buy that extra second to get it just right. 3. I'd say that depends on the stance. If by 'stance' you mean some Karate Kid-esque bs, then yeah, but e.g. the fence can also be seen as a stance because it's just your basic fighting stance masked as a calming, submissive gesture: your lead hand is up to control the distance, your back hand is there to cover your vitals and to deliver your pre-emptive strike, the KO, your feet are positioned shoulder's width apart, you're standing at about 45 degrees to your opponent just like in a boxing stance, but since your palms are held towards your opponent and you're standing and talking in a relaxed, non-threatening manner, it doesn't look like a 'stance.' The Jack Benny is another one some people use even though it's more static and has some weaknesses the fence doesn't. There are several of these masked stances a lot of RBSD folks use when they end up in a situation. 4. I'd have to disagree here. Some, sure. But if a guy brandishes his blade before the fight has even started, it's often just to intimidate the opponent. What's worse, the guy with the knife often hasn't even the guts to use the weapon, hence they try to scare the other person into submission. The people who have no qualms stabbing and cutting others often conceal the knife and use it in a manner that their opponent doesn't even know they've been stabbed / cut until they lay on the pavement, bleeding to death. I mean, without a very good reason, why give away the tactical advantage of the element of surprise? I know I'd rather keep my blade out of sight than brandish it in my opponent's face, letting him know what I got, allowing him to adjust his approach to the situation accordingly.
Sorry T.Trian, I don't want to get into a p*ssing contest here but, your education sounds too clinical, too tick tock, too book read. Simple physics will tell you that speed is paramount. Double the speed gives you four times the power. The quicker you accelerate, the harder you will hit. Hit him first with your lead hand (you don't have to move your feet, and it gets there quicker). Doormen/bouncers are a singular case. They always come in numbers (that thing in his ear isn't an ipod). They are usually dealing with drunks, and they are usually big guys, who are more likely to 'escort' you out than start a bar-fight in the club, (their job is to prevent trouble, not start it). Your 'fence' stance has been used by fighters since forever. Your detailed description just makes it sound wooden. You mentioned 'brandishing' a knife. Thats for the kid who's trying to stick you up for your pocket money. Im talking about a man coming at you with a knife. He doesn't chat with you, he holds it low and close, and he keeps coming. Thats a man with a knife. Peace.
I believe it's possible to disagree without it being a pissing contest, so no offense taken. However, may I ask what exactly makes my education (what education btw? My martial arts training? Or my overall level of education reflected by the way I write my posts or something?) sound clinical and too book read? Or do you mean I come off as someone who's never been in a real fight and is only parroting stuff I've read on books / internet forums? Absolutely. I didn't say speed isn't important. I just believe accuracy, timing, and power are more important. I think this is one of those issues where there are no absolute truths: we are all individuals and what works for me, may not work for you and vice versa. From what I've observed, when it comes to this matter, there will never be a universally accepted consensus between different martial arts, different schools, different practitioners, but I digress; it's not the way, just a way. Very true. The reason why I think Thompson's experiences provide him with enough relevant experience that what he says can be taken seriously is because he was a bouncer before the ear-thingy-era and often worked doors solo or his mates were otherwise occupied (inside while he was out or the other way around or they were fighting others). He worked pubs and clubs in Coventry a few decades back and that was a rough area at the time (before the age of law suits and cell phone cameras), so actual fights were common instead of all incidents being just about dragging a half-conscious punter outside when he starts barfing on the dance floor. Granted, I wasn't there, so of course he could turn out to be the biggest fraud in the universe, but from what I've gathered, quite a few top level self-defense instructors (who have met / trained with him) speak highly of him and regard him as a reliable source of good self-defense instruction. In fact, pretty much all of his material is aimed for the average joe instead of bouncers, and, well, so far his teachings (mostly the psychological stuff about awareness, adrenaline, the fence, knowing how to "read" an aggressive person so you know whether to go for the psych out or KO etc: I'm not a fan of the actual techniques he prefers) have saved my butt more than once, so as far as I'm concerned, his stuff works for us ordinary folks too. First, actually the fence isn't my concept (I wish it was, I'd be famous). It was, again, Geoff Thompson, who coined the term (although he admits he'd seen people use it before him; he was just the first guy to put such a heavy emphasis on its use in potentially violent confrontations, that's why many people see him as the guy who pioneered it and made it more well-known in the martial arts community). Second, sorry, my linguistic skills aren't the greatest in the world; I know my description doesn't do justice to the concept, but I was actually just trying to explain the general idea without delving into the subject in greater detail (especially since I'm not a real authority on the subject). I merely wanted to bring it up so someone who hasn't heard of it can google it and find out about an idea many people far superior to me (when it comes to the fighting arts) have found useful. Many people have refined the fence, but since Thompson was the guy who first made a big deal of it, I used his ideas in the example instead of Southnarc's, Rich Dimitri's, Tony Blauer's, or someone else's version of it. Understood. I just felt your explanation was a little too broad a generalization: "Someone who pulls a knife before the confrontation, definitely wants to cut you." To me that sounds like every guy who pulls a knife intends to cut you even though that's definitely not the case. My bad. The misunderstanding stemmed from incidents that've happened around my area (though I'm sure similar stuff has happened all over the world). I've seen a few knives pulled and with the exception of one case, all others were just pussies (and not just kids either) too scared to fight and wanted to intimidate their opponent into running away. One guy especially learned never to pull a weapon you don't have the guts / knowhow to use when the people around him suddenly ganged up on him, guys totally unrelated to the situation but who were pissed off that someone would start waving a knife at his opponent's face just because of a drunken shoving match. But I agree that a guy with a knife rushing towards you, shouting "die, die, die!" presents an entirely different kind of a problem and is a serious threat. I do hope I'll have my gun handy if I ever end up in a situation like that because I'd rather wrestle a guy with a gun than a guy with a knife, especially one who knows how to use it... and I'd prefer even more to shoot the bastard if running away isn't an option.
^this. Although, I would add that it would be best to avoid ever go to the ground. I can't think of any situations where going to the ground is a last resort. Also, regarding the amateurs opening with a kick; I haven't seen too much of that, to be honest. I've seen sloppy haymakers, but never kicking. Also, I'm not sure about the knife-pulling thing. If I didn't wanna cut someone, just scare him off, I'd probably pull a knife out before the confrontation. If I did, I wouldn't let him see me pull it out and just go in for the kill. I'd have to disagree with this. I've swerved my drunken friends away from getting into punch-ons with other drunken strangers by being level-headed, friendly and assertive. Any decent doorman who's not a violent meat-head will tell you that.
T.Trian. My apologies. Please forgive the unprovoked, and unwarranted outburst of a grumpy old man. i don't know you, and have no right to comment on you, or your martial qualifications. Just because you are young does not neccessarily mean you are not an experienced fighter. People of my age have licence to be a special kind of stupid. Over the years, trial and (sometimes painful) error, have led me to some conclusions.... The way you read a situation will determine how you handle it. Your mouth is a powerful tool. In general, i repeat, in general,... appeasement invites domination,... aggression escalates hostility,... neutral, non-emotional response is the most likely to result in a non-violent outcome. A persons fighting style will be heavily influenced/restricted by their personality, body shape, size, and speed. (even with all the skill in the world, an 85lb woman is going to struggle to put a wrist-lock on a 250lb man). Size matters. Big doesn't always mean slow. In any confrontation, you must be 100% committed. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid). Learn the basic attack/defence moves that have been incorporated across the board by most martial arts. There is a good reason why the majority of martial arts use these same techniques... they work. If you have to think about how to do it, you haven't practiced it enough. Spectacular techniques can go spectacularly wrong ! My apologies to Xatron for going off track.
I believe he said "I'm not convinced of their effectiveness in the context of a street fight where you need to put your opponent down quickly. " Adrenaline is a funny thing. While some may go down, some may stay up. Also, kidney-punch me once while I'm shitfaced, moving and wearing a thick winter coat. I might react to it differently then than now, sober, still, a t-shirt on. I would definitely second this in case someone's writing, say, a street-wise bouncer. He'll just come off a bit funny if he pulls some weird-ass pressure-point high-kick kidney shot combo. It's scary when someone starts acting threatening towards you, it's difficult to solve a math problem while someone acts like they might be about to hurt you, god, you don't know what's on their mind, this isn't what you did at the gym, you stand on asphalt instead of tatami, oh shit -- So instincts come to play, and if you haven't your go-to technique, you'll hesitate, lose time, lack commitment, and might get hurt in the end, things happen fast... Of course, I'm just a girl, not a big-ass bouncer dude who's fought a lot, but these things have stuck to me from Maga, and from what Thompson's taught as well, that you don't want to have a wide array of complicated techniques 'cause it's difficult to have them all ingrained, make them instinctive.
You can damage skinny guy's kidneys by jumping hard on his back. Or a whack either side of the back, just below the posterior ribs. Even if the kidney doesn't rupture (a person can die from this, or lose a kidney) it's extremely painful and remains so for some days, They are also likely to be pissing blood for a while, and some get permanent damage and scarring.
Yep, and in a street fight situation, if you hit the person hard enough in the kidneys, they are going to go down. with your logic I can rebut any form of assault. "Hitting someone in the head is the best way to take a man down in a street fight." - Yeah, but what if I'm wearing a helmet. "In a street fight, you should aim for the stomach." -No, what if I'm wearing a padded suit, like the ones they use to train attack dogs. "Bend their arm up their back, and push them to the ground." -Well, you see, I often go out wearing a mechanical exo-skeleton. The ones they trialled in the US a couple of years ago. Won't work. If you want to cater to specific fights, then in many, a kidney shot will not work. Just like in many a headshot won't work because the opponent knows how to fight, and if they are physically much stronger than you, a grapple won't work. Boxers, spend a lot of time on their core muscles so they can sustain blows to their mid-rift and continue fighting. They also tense their core in anticipation for these blows. Your average joe on the street is going to feel a good hit to a vital organ and as Jazz said, potentially die as a consequence. On a side-note about street-fighting in general, as someone said earlier, you are taking a very wooden, almost dungeons & dragons style approach to it. No fight I've ever been in has been like this. It's not a turn based, where each man takes his hit and hopes to get a critical strike. You have to wait for the opportune moment, and hit whatever presents itself and will do the most damage. Whether that's face, vitals, or even arms and legs. Hit someone hard enough in the thigh and you can disable them.
Oh, I'm sure if I just stand still and someone takes a baseball bat to my kidneys, it'd hurt like fuck. However, as KaTrian pointed out, getting a full-force blow to the kidneys in a real fight is a bit more difficult without committing to the strike so much it endangers you to a KO if you miss or for whatever reason the other guy doesn't go down. It's cold here 9 months of the year so people wear thick jackets over layers of clothing, so that makes it even more difficult to score a KO from a kidney shot (or a liver shot, even). Again, look at Ali vs. Frazier. I'd imagine most folks don't have Frazier's punching power and Ali still fought 14 rounds with the guy. Great points, sanco! I do agree that going to the ground is always a risk, because even if it's just the two of you in a secluded alley, there might be broken glass or other harmful stuff on the ground or the other guy might be packing a knife and when you're wrestling with someone, you easily lose sight of their hands and that's when things get dangerous. The only time I would try to take down someone on the street is if there's nobody else close by and I'm losing the fight standing up. Even then I'd try to end the fight quickly, perhaps take the guy down and go for a knife myself to finish him off within seconds of hitting the pavement (or if I get a good double leg on him, slam him against the curb as hard as I can, trying to KO him with the slam alone). But to reiterate, even that's a risk I'd rather not take, ever. I also agree with the last part of your post. I know I come off as a Thompson fan boy, but he really does have lots of good stuff in regards to de-escalating a fight. He teaches tricks you can use to control your opponent's adrenaline. For instance, if he's very aggressive and you feel a fight is imminent, it's best to pretend to be a wimp, act submissive to put him at ease. Then ask a question (e.g. "can't I just give you some money?") because whether he answers it or not, a question always engages the brain and creates a "blind moment" for just a second. That's when you go for the KO, a hard, accurate, explosively fast hit to the jaw, throat, or temple, and continue to rain strikes on him until he's out for the count. However, if the other guy isn't quite that aggressive and seems like he really doesn't want to fight or hesitates, you can go for the psych out: you become super-aggressive, shove him, shout at him ("Okay, let's do it! Let's fucking do it! Come on! The fuck you waiting for? Huh?" etc), causing him to experience an adrenaline dump, a huge, sudden release that often paralyzes people or at least causes intense feelings of fear. Just bear in mind that IF this doesn't work and he doesn't back down for whatever reason, be prepared to fight. If you aren't, it'll show, he won't buy the act, and you're in the shit. I've used the psych out twice, both times successfully. I grabbed the guy by the throat, shoved him back, and yelled at him that if he took just one step forward, I'd put him down. After a brief staring contest (I really was going to go for the KO if he took just one step), he left with some bullshit excuse about having to go do something. Then again, friendly de-escalation has also worked. Once three big guys started shoving me and my wife (for absolutely no reason) while we were jogging past them. We have prepared for incidents like that, so as planned, the wife ran off to a safe distance (she's a faster sprinter than I am btw, 100m in 13 seconds), ready to call the cops, while I dealt with the assholes: the main guy was in my face, trying to bump his chest into mine, but I kept up my fence so he was lined up for a KO the whole time, my lead hand extended between us, palm towards him in a submissive way while I spoke calmly but sternly. When I had to push him (lightly) back the third time so he wouldn't walk into me, I decided that if he touches my lead hand once more, I'd go for the KO. So I asked a question ("is there a problem?"), keeping my tone very calm, even submissive to put him at ease, take away all the benefits of adrenaline, his aggression, and in the end he just shook his head, said "no problem" and backed off. The guy was so aggressive a psych out would've just resulted in a fight, so here the wimpy de-escalation tactic worked even though I was prepared to tussle if it didn't. Thompson says these dance rituals before a fight are all about acting: when you're in the shit, you have to act meek and submissive to disarm the other guy before you put him down (or leave if he does back down), or if the other guy seems to hesitate, you either go for the friendly route, or the psych out and pull out all the stops, verbally, while preparing to back your verbal assault with actions. It's about learning to control your own adrenaline flow, controlling your fear and manipulating that of your assailant(s). Like I said, no offense taken, it's cool, mate. Besides, you are right that I am no expert, just a student who's more experienced than some, less experienced than some others. It's a never-ending process and thank God for that. Sound advice. The "dance" before a confrontation escalates into violence is all about having the eye to read and assess the situation. Luckily you always have only two choices: fight or flight, and that's the only choice you should have to make in a situation like that, everything else should be so igrained into your (muscle)memory that it's instinctive instead of conscious, otherwise you risk freezing, a mental lock-jam when you'd most need to act. And I agree that often a calm but stern manner is the best course of action. On rarer occasions, you can de-escalate a situation by being friendly and nice, but usually that's not the case because most assailants don't operate on logic anyway: either they believe you've wronged them somehow or they just want a fight in which case nothing you say will dissuade them. That's when I believe it's best to act meek and submissive and then blindside them pre-emptively, go straight for the KO with your most reliable attack and then keep attacking relentlessly, aggressively until there's no longer a threat or you can escape. Which do you think is more probable: a guy starts picking a fight with you wearing a motorcycle helmet or a guy wearing a winter coat? Or maybe it's a fat guy with half a ton of lard covering his kidneys? Also, the kidneys are on the side of the back whereas the jaw is served to you on a platter. Which do you think is easier to hit pre-emptively when the guy is still yapping at you? After all, most aggressors don't pick a fight with their back to their intended victim. But hey, if the kidney shot is your go-to move and it works for you, good for you, I have no problem with that. Like I said above, we are all individuals and what works for you, might not work for me and vice versa. I'm not saying a kidney shot can't work. I'm not saying it's not effective. It is, that's why boxers use it. But I am saying a hard hit to the jaw or throat is a safer option, at least to me, because it's more likely to end the fight then and there. Some people can fight through pain or they are on drugs that make them incapable of feeling pain. That's why techniques that rely on pain compliance aren't as reliable as techniques that cause unconsciousness, because no matter how strong the guy is, how trained he is, or what drugs he's on, a hard hit to the jaw or throat is more likely to have the desired result. Even if he doesn't get KO'd immediately, the following disorientation gives you a good window to either escape or put him down for good. A hit to the thigh again relies on pain compliance. I've trained enough muay thai to know how a very hard kick to the thigh feels like and I've seen guys eat many of those and still keep fighting. With a limp, but they don't go down. Some regular joe might, but do you want to take the chance that he won't if you can use something that is more likely to end the fight? Why take the risk? If you doubt my credentials or skills, you're welcome to send me a PM and I can tell you just what I have trained, how long, who my teachers are, and in how many and what kind of violent confrontations I have experienced. However, I don't think discussion about my level of knowhow is relevant to this topic, so can we drop the subject? Otherwise it'll just boil down to a useless discussion about who's got the biggest (I do ). Now, if we're talking about what choices to make in a fight, I think that once punches start flying, the time to make choices is long gone. The only choice you need to make is fight or flight and even that should be made well before the fight breaks out. Most of what I'm talking about here has little to do with the actual fight, most of it is about the moments before the fight, the moments when you're still measuring each other, trading insults or whatever the situation is, because few fights start with someone punching a guy just passing him by on the street (though I've seen that too). I don't even think techniques matter much. Use whatever works for you. The important stuff is the tactics before the fighting starts so you manipulate the situation so that if it does kick off, you are in the best position possible to come out on top. Most schools and arts don't teach this part at all which, I believe, is one of the most important, if not the most important part of self-defense training. You don't need a thousand fancy techniques. All you need is a basic repertoire but one that you know inside out and can perform in any situation. However, without the mental training, none of those techniques will serve you if you put yourself in a bad position before the fight or you freeze because you don't understand adrenaline and its effects on your mind and body. That's why I'm going on about the pre fight rituals, assault ques, psych outs etc, because I've found that stuff essential and something that should be a part of every self-defense school's curriculum (in addition to lectures about local laws regarding self-defense so the students know what they are up against if the police get involved). Naturally some disagree, but what is a discussion forum but a medium where we can exchange opinions, some of which are bound to clash? No harm in that, but I'd still rather we stuck to the subject instead of speculating someone's person/experiences especially since there's no way to verify anything.
