Yes, that's my contention. Or possibly a full stop, if he was making a particularly emphatic point. If I was writing this speech as a fictional speech, delivered by a fictional character in a scene where he is speaking in front of a huge crowd of people, I would probably write it like so: "I have a dream. That one day this nation will rise up, and live out the true meaning of its creed. 'We hold these truths to be self-evident. That all men are created equal.'" See the difference? I feel my 'speech' is truer to the 'sound' of MLK's actual recorded speech. You are free to disagree, but that's how I see it.
Wait, you're saying you're using the "a talking together; conversation" definition? Surely in this context the "the passages of talk in a play, story, etc." definition would make more sense, wouldn't it? I mean, if we're using the "conversation" definition, then, no, it would make no sense to use a colon, because in an actual conversation we wouldn't be writing anything down. I'm not advocating the institution of "air colons". But that's not really what we've been talking about, surely. I think maybe you're trying to conflate the two definitions, with "dialogue" meaning "the passages of talk in a play, story, etc. that resemble a talking together or conversation". But I don't think that combined definition is a valid one, do you?
Okay, yeah, I'm going to disagree strongly. And obviously I see the difference. That's the problem. So, yes, I disagree that a period more accurately represents the sense of expectation he was able to create with his voice, but, whatever - that's a question of interpretation. But the fact that you feel there is a difference suggests that you do feel the effect of a colon, doesn't it? I mean, if a colon represented the same verbal effect that a period represents, there wouldn't be a difference, and one version wouldn't be truer to the sound of the speech, right? I think I'm out of fresh ways to present this idea, so I guess I'm done. Best of luck with your colon-free dialogue!
I'm not quite sure what your point is here? I always meant reproducing the way speech sounds as well as what is said, as closely as possible. I think that's what most writers mean, when they refer to how to write good 'dialogue'. Yes, I'm done too, but I've appreciated the conversation between us. You've given me something to think about, that's for sure. Thanks!
Lol I actually far prefer the colon. I'm not entirely sure keeping dialogue true to the way dialogue sounds, based on the "punctuation sounds" we might make for a full stop or comma etc is quite the way to go, personally. You're writing, after all. Yes, the writing mimics speaking when you're writing dialogue (or character interactions in the form of speech) - but it is a mimic. It is not really, actually dialogue. It's as Magritte's picture demonstrates: This is not a pipe. And as such, I'd use the punctuation that gives the speech the most impact, that is most effective at delivering whatever it is I'm trying to convey. Resemblence to "real" dialogue be damned Real dialogue isn't even interesting half the time! (esp the ones you eavesdrop on ) You cannot truly "punctuate" real dialogue anyway because nobody speaks punctuation - punctuation, like the written word, is a visual translation of how people communicate. A tool that clarifies meaning when meaning is put to paper. As such, use the punctuation that best communicates your point. And if that be a colon, then so be it!
I wouldn't argue with that. I've always maintained you should do whatever works best for you. But I don't do it myself. I can't quite envision somebody having a normal conversation, and making noises like colons and semicolons. When these things appear in dialogue, it makes the dialogue look too formal for me. Speechy. (Like MLK's famous quoted speech at the civil rights rally in DC. I wonder if he also used colons and semicolons when he was talking over dinner to his wife?) I don't write conversation that way. And my characters don't make formal speeches either, at least not yet! This was my original statement, which I think makes very clear that I'm not trying to tell other people what to do, or even supporting the notion 100%. I do use both colons and semicolons in narrative, though—and that's not universally popular either.
Oh I don't see myself ever using semi-colons and colons in written dialogue either - but I don't agree that it shouldn't be used because it's not "natural" to speech. Punctuation in general is unnatural to speech. I don't quite understand your statements above though - people do not generally think in punctuations and punctuations themselves have no noise. As I said, I think this very literal translation of punctuation to actual, real-life speech is flawed. The two do not translate like that. Nobody uses full stops and commas in speech either - what you perceive to be a full stop in written form is a coded translation because you've been told that's what a full stop means. Likewise, if the pause in speech translates well into a colon or semi-colon, based on what you've been taught those punctuation mean, then those would be the punctuation that should be used. And no worries, I know you're not saying everyone should do things this way Now, if your argument was that there's no need to use colons and semi-colons in speech when a comma or full stop would suffice - I wouldn't necessarily agree but I would find that line of logic much more reasonable. But that has nothing to do with whether it's "natural".
They're versatile, and add excitement to what might otherwise be a dull block of text. I don't know if I over use them, but they're definitely a big part of my writing style, and I'm okay with that
Correct—you should not hit spacebar twice after each sentence. That is a dated standard from the days of typewriters.
Take it from one who can't help hitting that space bar twice. (50 years of typing/keying with 10 fingers...! As soon as I take my mind off it, it's wap-wap every time.) It makes for one heck of an editing job when I'm formatting. But no biggie. I catch other spacing errors as well!
Thanks, now I've heard it directly from an authority such as yourself, I'll be sure not to do such a thing again.
This is a horrible can of worms. I am one of those people who has bowed reluctantly to the 'new' method after being bitch-slapped online by a couple of my Facebook friends who have editing jobs, and who are forced (apparently) to go through everyone's submissions and remove the extra space. They hate the fuddy-duddy submitters like poison, and when I tried to argue the case for the double-space, they fell upon me like starving Harpies. I noticed, during the fray, that Facebook automatically removes the extra space. However, I find the arguments against the double space are pretty weak, when it gets down to it. I personally find the double space more aesthetically pleasing, and allows sentences to breathe a bit. Use certain fonts, and single-spaced sentences sometimes look run-together. Especially on Kindle, I've had to re-read passages on occasion, just because the sentence didn't make sense. Why? Because it was two sentences, and I didn't notice the full stop. Also, what happens when you need to use a full stop for an abbreviation? That can also be confusing. As for the pluses for the new one-space convention? ...can't really think of any, other than a slight saving of space, which might matter in certain kinds of publications like newspapers. Anyway, I've caved in. I still use double spaces when I type, and doubt that will change. But when the software doesn't do it for me, and I'm formatting for submission ...okay, I'll need to take the damn things out. Curse your hide.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing
Well, I'd like to think I'm not that long in the tooth and when I was at school, two spaces after a full stop or colon was how I learned to do it with one space after commas or semi colons. On one of those new fangled computers, I hasten to add. Any chance we can have a forty plus page thread on this to add some more confusion to the debate? Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, it's way down there in my list of priorities in terms of my WIP. To be frank, I sincerely doubt whether or not I'd notice either way.
I remember that the post on Facebook that started it all had some snotty editor person saying something along the lines of 'you're showing your age if you still use double-spaces, so stop doing it.' I dove in. It really pissed me off, actually. I said hey, I'm not at all ashamed of my age. And whoopde doodle doo, they were off.
Um, feels like sarcasm here, but erm...that's the new standard. Seems the question was asked and jannert answered truthfully, sooooo whazza problem? The reason double spaces were used was because eons ago typesetters used monospaced type (which means every character occupied an equal amount of horizontal space). To compensate, skinny characters like "I" and "1" were given less space than bigger ones, like "M"). Monospaced type gives you uneven spaces between characters and words, so it's more difficult to see the spaces between sentences at first glance, which is why they adopted the 'two space' rule. Monospaced fonts went out in the '70s. Electric typewriters and computers gave people proportional fonts and today nearly every font on your computer is proportional (COURIER is the major exception). After much investigation and debate, typographers have concluded that we should use the one-space rule, not two-space. Just one of many sources out there on the subject: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html
Haha I was using double spaces after my full stops all the way till the autumn of 2014, and I'm only 27! Maybe that editor was 16 and immature? Cus only the truly very young would think late 20s is old (mostly those who haven't finished studying). Btw you can easily eliminate the double spaces with a Find and Replace. I seem to think that the single space is supposed to be good because it doesn't mess up formatting in Kindle and other e-readers?
It's interesting what you say about Kindle. In fact, I checked that out. I sent one of my 'old' chapters to my Kindle, using the 'convert' option, which means the document appears on my own Kindle with all the options to change text size, etc. And it accepted my double-spaced stuff no bother. So ...I'm not convinced it's necessary, to be honest, unless a publisher or agent definitely calls for it. I went ahead and removed the double spaces anyway, just to stop the storm of protest. But I'm not sure it makes all that much difference, to tell the truth. Unfortunately ...or fortunately? ...my Pages programme apparently doesn't recognise double stop/replace. So that means I need to do it manually. However it also means a very thorough proofread for all sorts of spacing errors, so it's worth the time.
Oh yeah, I don't think it's a big deal. It's technically correct to use single spaces after periods, but no agent or pubber's going to reject you on that basis if they're into the story.
Yawn. So, in conclusion then, if the story's good enough. . . Sorry Phil, don't mean to be so dismissive but you've just confirmed (if it needed to be) what I've always known.
Double-spaces are old-fashioned, from the typewriter days. I don't know how many publishers actually care. I've seen a few guidelines that specifically request it. I don't use double spaces after a period in my own work any longer, and when I'm editing stories where the author has used a double space I do a global "find and replace" to change them all to single spaces, which is now what I believe the be the standard. Not really a huge issue, but it does make me feel like a writer is a bit behind the times.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your tone, I don't like it. You can choose to use two spaces instead of one if you want, but that isn't today's standard, and doing so will make your work look less professional. Deciding you want to go against the standards of today—by using two spaces—is just the same as a person fifty years ago deciding they wanted to use one space, when what was expected were two. I've given you the correct information for what is expected today . Don't be snotty to me for trying to help you.
Here's one of the sections of the Wikipedia article I linked to in an earlier post. This issue is extremely controversial. However, apparently—according to Wikipedia—most publishers now want single-spacing. QUOTE BELOW - Portions highlighted in red by me Controversy James Felici, author of the Complete Manual of Typography, says that the topic of sentence spacing is "the debate that refuses to die ... In all my years of writing about type, it's still the question I hear most often, and a search of the web will find threads galore on the subject".[4] This subject is still widely debated today. Many people are opposed to single sentence spacing for various reasons. Some state that the habit of double spacing is too deeply ingrained to change.[74] Others claim that additional space between sentences improves the aesthetics or readability of text.[75] Proponents of double sentence spacing also state that some publishers may still require double spaced manuscript submissions from authors. A key example noted is the screenwriting industry's monospaced standard for screenplay manuscripts, Courier, 12-point font,[76] although some works on screenwriting indicate that Courier is merely preferred - proportional fonts may be used.[77] Some reliable sources state simply that writers should follow their particular style guide, but proponents of double spacing caution that publishers' guidance takes precedence, including those that ask for double sentence spaced manuscripts.[78] One of the most popular arguments against wider sentence spacing is that it was created for monospaced fonts of the typewriter, and is no longer needed with modern proportional fonts.[79] However, proportional fonts existed together with wide sentence spacing for centuries before the typewriter, and remained for decades after its invention. When the typewriter was first introduced, typists were most commonly taught to use three spaces between sentences.[21] This gradually shifted to two spaces, while the print industry remained unchanged in its wide em-spaced sentences. Some sources now state it is acceptable for monospaced fonts to be single spaced today,[80] although other references continue to specify double spacing for monospaced fonts.[81] The double space typewriter convention has been taught in schools in typing classes, and that remains the practice in many cases.[13] Some voice concerns that students will later be forced to relearn how to type.[82] Most style guides indicate that single sentence spacing is proper for final or published work today,[44] and most publishers require manuscripts to be submitted as they will appear in publication—single sentence spaced.[83] Writing sources typically recommend that prospective authors remove extra spaces before submitting manuscripts,[84] although other sources state that publishers will use software to remove the spaces before final publication.[85] Some proponents of using two spaces between sentences say that it eliminates confusion in cases where sentence-ending punctuation might otherwise be ambiguous, such as when a period could denote either an abbreviation or the end of a sentence. In software analysis, this is known as the sentence boundary problem. ............. One of my 'beefs' about the single space convention is that, in certain fonts anyway, the eye does not readily distinguish between a comma and a period (full stop.) I have had that happen to me many times when reading a book on Kindle. I go galloping past the period, seeing it as a comma, and whoopsie, suddenly the sentence doesn't make sense. The cap letter at the start of the sentence often rescues this, but not if the sentence begins with somebody's name, or the first-person "I." I use Times New Roman, and really prefer the way the text looks with double-spacing. But because it's true that the single-spacing is now the standard, I've eliminated the double during formatting. I can't stop myself double-spacing while keying in text, though. So it will always be a bit of a chore for me, going through afterwards and eliminating the extra space. I'd be interested to know. Are there any 10-fingered typists out there, folks who learned to type the old fashioned way, who have successfully changed their 2-space habit?
