Is using Christianity (and especially Jesus) as a plot device in bad taste?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Lumipon, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. Solar

    Solar Banned Contributor

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    What's wrong with making jesus look bad?
    Why is there an automatic assumption that jesus
    was a good man? Or that christianity is noble?

    What if a person believes that the christian creed
    has damaged the human species on catastrophic levels?
    Why should a person show respect if they think this?

    Some people might equate christianity with
    nazism. Should those people respect nazism
    in the same way you demand respect
    for christianity?

    These are just questions. Just food for thought.
     
  2. BFGuru

    BFGuru Active Member

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    I guess it didn't bother me. Let's face it, Jesus himself was accused of just that. He was called beelzebub by his accusers. And he DID in fact, warp the reality of the people of that day. Really? Paraplegics simply get up and walk? That man never walked a day in his life. The knowledge that the centurian's son was better on his word? And woah...who would have ever considered speaking to a Samaritan woman, let alone helping her by speaking (what appeared to be magical) words and healing her child? Let's not forget that whole walking on water thing. The things attributed to Jesus were not called miracles because they were common place or even in line with what was known about the world back then. It was exceptional. Even other worldly. Reality warper is a pretty decent explanation when you consider it that way...but then...this has aliens too...which makes the idea of the ascension sound like a worm hole...which could be cool. Maybe. Depending on how well it's written haha!
     
  3. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Alive in the Superunknown

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    If it's controversial enough, having Jesus involved could stoke sales.
     
  4. Gonissa

    Gonissa New Member

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    What's wrong with God warping reality? Doesn't he do that when he does miracles? You should read "Miracles" by CS Lewis. Just because God uses powers or whatever doesn't mean it's magic.

    Yeah, that's about right.
     
  5. ithestargazer

    ithestargazer Active Member

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    I think the OP gave completely legitimate grounds to use Jesus and I'd find it interesting to read a story that takes a big part of our history and adds some flavour to it. From what's been said, the OP didn't choose Jesus because it'd be controversial, he chose him because of the way Christianity has influenced society.

    Please, please, please write your story and not worry about offending people. People will be offended by ANYTHING and you don't have to give up your ideas for anyone. People protested and burned Harry Potter books and most can agree that's just crazy!

    Treat the religion however you want. You're allowed to have an opinion and if you write your story well people will respect it for that (I certainly would). There seems to be this taboo on criticising religion or revisualising history in fiction. Fiction is about exploring humanity and there should not be barriers placed on that.

    Good luck.
     
  6. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Well as writers I'm sure you'll agree with me when I say certain words carry with it certain connotations and these connotations cannot be ignored and you cannot ask a reader to take every word by its technical meaning. Of course you have to question the definition of "reality" - warping reality brings with it the idea of something being an illusion, or of something being twisted, usually in a negative sense (one doesn't normally use "warp" in a positive sense as far as I am aware!). God bent the laws of nature - is that really the same as "twisting reality"?

    I shall indeed look up that book by CS Lewis!

    And to Solar - it's an interesting point you make - but that is why I say, write about Jesus then if you actually have a point to it, if there's a message you want to spread - I can at least see the integrity of that even if I'd still nonetheless hate the content. But it makes my blood boil to see those who love to take the piss at Jesus just for the sake of controversy. (I'm not saying the OP's doing that) And it's also why I agree wholeheartedly with Gonissa - write about it only if you actually know about it. And actually, in the instance of actually spreading a message you passionately believe in, I personally prefer non-fiction because then it's clear, it has arguments and reasons and evidence and its stance is clear. Fiction can be misleading in this sense. But that's neither here nor there because it's not the question of the thread :)
     
  7. Iron Orchid

    Iron Orchid New Member

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    I say wholeheartedly go for it and I agree with the people saying that whatever you write, someone will dislike it for some reason that you won't have thought of anyway. This is the nature of people.

    People ask why use Jesus? I ask why not use Jesus? It sounds like your story is a big "What If... ?" and it sounds potentially interesting as I always like to think of a different perspective on a myth.

    I'm sorry to be a living pun and play devil's advocate here, but I see all sides and I'm just left thinking that you should write what you want. Ignore anyone telling you to do it a certain way that's not what you want to do. You don't have to pander to anyone's tastes but your own!
    To me the Bible is a work of fiction and your story would be nothing but an homage, a different view or at worst a parody, and parodies can be pretty darn good.

    One last thought is that C.S. Lewis managed to portray Jesus as a lion with superpowers, so why isn't it OK to portray Jesus as a man who can bend reality? In effect you could say it's closer to the original myth.
     
  8. adampjr

    adampjr New Member

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    Yes! That is precisely the same thing. If you believe the Joshua story literally (about the sun standing still and no fallout from that fact), then God twisted adn warped reality!

    Nevertheless, I think you're right that this book is not exactly going to be one that endorses Christianity. You could read the description that way, but I think it's forced. The author is obviously tampering with the traditional understanding.

    Personally, I'd absolutely read this. I'm a Christian, but unless some book about Jesus is spreading bad ideas while passing as a Christian book - I'd be able to appreciate a well written story even if it takes a revisionist approach to Jesus.
     
  9. Solar

    Solar Banned Contributor

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    Indeed. And that's why I don't put stock in the bible.
     
  10. LetaDarnell

    LetaDarnell Member

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    I can see this getting the backlash of being offensive that DaVinci code got (about Christianity, not about all the inaccuracies). In that, the use of Christianity didn't amount to anything. Yes, When the Bible was compiled and it was decided which parts were canon and which were, the parts about Jesus marrying was left out. But that could be found out with a library book anyone could get their hands on. A Carmen Sandiego plot wasn't needed for it, so the Christianity part was rendered useless to the story and seemed tacked on.

    You have to ask yourself if you're doing this. Does anything change if Jesus is just some guy named Bob and Christianity isn't involved?

    I have tons of questions about the story, but if Jesus isn't needed, they're rendered moot.
     
  11. Nilfiry

    Nilfiry Senior Member

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    I thought people do this all the time.
     
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  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Though the genesis of this thread is nearly two years ago, I was thinking the same thing as I read through it. There are plenty of examples where the bible and its stories are tapped as source material for fiction. Some are moderate prop stealing like Sharon Shinn's Samaria series and others are more direct like Clive Barker's Imajica, which takes the basic structure of christian mythos and turns it into a fantasy landscape of interconnected realms (think the Thor films) where the highest dominion (heaven) is occupied by "god", but in this story god isn't the creator, he's an invasive force that moved his way, violently, up through the lower dominions, finally conquering and seizing the highest realm for himself and no one else. In the story the second coming of Christ (a man who goes by the nickname Gentle) learns that in his first incarnation (as Jesus) he got pissed off at Daddy when he discovered he was a thug and tried to kill him and was extinguished for his efforts. This time around (as Gentle) he knows more and will be more successful in his goals. Oh, and in this story angels are hermaphrodite shape shifters who are prized as the ultimate lovers because they will literally become whatever your heart desires. Gentle has a lover named Judith from the Fifth Dominion (Earth) and an angel lover named Pie'oh'pah who spends most of the book in the form of a man, and though he makes himself into what Gentle wants between the sheets, you leave the book with the impression that the second coming of Christ is an ambivalently bisexual British fellow with a mixed race, East End bloke for a lover, both intent on killing Daddy-God.

    You would think Barker wrote that and then was sat there, hands wringing, waiting for the backlash to start rolling in. ;)

    ETA: As an atheist, my opinion is why tread any more lightly here than in using ancient Greek or Roman mythology. We call those mythology today, but when they were in play in the cultures they come from, they were religious stories and paradigms. The word mythology can mislead people that there is some kind of difference, when there is in fact none.
     
  13. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    Even though this is an old thread, I'll share my thoughts. In my opinion, a good book is one that provides a new perspective on things. I value innovation and imagination. If you're using Christianity and Jesus without a valid reason (i.e., you're only using those things to create controversy and boost sales), I'm going to be disappointed. On the other hand, if you use them in a creative way, I'm more likely to be engaged as a reader. Take for example Saramago's The Gospel According to Jesus Christ. It's a thought-provoking fictional account of Jesus' life. In the book, Jesus is very "human" and has obvious faults like the rest of us. This obviously created some controversy, but I felt that Saramago was using Christianity and Jesus to serve a greater purpose and make an important point. In fact, the philosophical implications in the book reminded me of Dostoevsky's "The Grand Inquisitor," which is a huge compliment to Saramago.
     
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  14. Devlin Blake

    Devlin Blake New Member

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    You're going to get a lot of hate mail. Maybe even some death threats since it's a hot button topic. But there are readers out there for you. Weather there enough of them is your call. And if you're comfortable with the threats and the backlash, that's your call too. Jesus Christ Superstar (The play) had people picketing it and speaking out against it every single day of it's first run and most major revivals. Not sure if Weber ever got a death threat.
     
  15. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    It's up to you, I'm not going to tell you whether this is a good idea or not, but @Devlin Blake said it best. If you can take the backlash from people who don't like your portrayal of Jesus, then go for it. I don't really have that strong of a stomach and a thick skin to endure withering hate (I'm kind of a pansy), so I personally wouldn't tread on controversial ground. You, however, might. I also advise you to make sure Jesus and Christianity isn't just shoe-horned into your story so you can rack up the book sales and the controversies.

    Just go with your guts and have fun. :)
     
  16. Hwaigon

    Hwaigon Senior Member

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    If an honest opinion of an honest Roman Catholic is appreciated, here it is:

    As was said above, playing around with religion in fiction touches on very delicate and intimate areas of life of those referred to (by referring to Jesus you are referring to us, same as by referring to Mohammed you're referring to Muslims, though in the case of Christians in general we consider ourselves all the more entitled to feel at one as we hold the belief of one united, mysthical body of Christ among us) .

    ...I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying if you want to write about Jesus, it would be nice (imperative) that you read who he was and what he said. I'd recommend a thorough research, since, viewed from whatever perspective, this is a very complex topic. And a rather thin-iced one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  17. Hwaigon

    Hwaigon Senior Member

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    Wholeheartedly agree with you. It is imoerative that it is understood that Jesus is NOT a mere pawn on the chessboard of the world's history.
     
  18. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

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    I think the story outlined in the original post may, historically, fit the emperor Constantine better than it fits Jesus. Constantine did want to unite the Roman empire and use Christianity as a tool to do it. He didn't care what people believed, so long as they all believed the same thing. Unity was his ultimate goal.

    I think there is a big difference between a story about the founder of a faith, and a story that includes a character who's motivated by his own religious interpretations. Even if you're a person of faith yourself, you can still look at some contemporary religious figure and say, 'that persons a nutter', so having such a figure in a story shouldn't be a problem. But if the character is Jesus, Christians today would not be able to distance themselves in this way, so it might all be 'too close to home'.
     
  19. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    Rowan Atkinson basically said Jesus was a magician in his seminal stand up, and audiences adored him. I'm sure many Christians complained, and many even liked it. As a writer, you must be willing to be controversial, not for the sake of it, but because it's unavoidable. If you write anything others will want to read, there's always going to be someone who'll accuse you of this that and other, it's the nature of the game.
     
  20. Shayla

    Shayla New Member

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    Christianity is a very specific belief system. I would generalise the whole idea of religion without labelling it.
     
  21. LetaDarnell

    LetaDarnell Member

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    Ouch. I'm hoping you didn't mean that in a condescending way as that's not considered very nice or PC.
     
  22. Shayla

    Shayla New Member

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    No not at all! I'm a Christian myself! I just meant if the story idea is to do with a religion it's very risky to aim it at one type of religion without that group of people taking offence and feeling attacked. That also leads to the question of why has the writer here chosen Christianity in particular if not at random?
     
  23. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

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    The audience was probably made up of people who were Rowan Atkinson fans...

    And Rowan Atkinson's views on religion are less than totally-committed to worship of the religion (I'm not saying that he isn't a Christian, or any other religion, merely that his humour includes poking fun at the religious establishment) vide the "Not The Nine O'Clock News" sketch where a Monty Python fan is outraged at a new film (possibly fictional) of the life of Jesus Christ, in particular that "they even used the same initials as our comic messiah, John Cleese".
     
  24. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    But you can purposefully aim, or you can unintentionally aim, and you offend someone/some group/some faith/some gender/some orientation, etc no matter what you do or write. The only thing an author can do to avert that is to write nothing and take up crochet instead. Again, as I cited before with examples of published works, there are countless books in existence, on the shelves, not written with the intent to evangelize, that do take parts, aspects, props, or the whole dang story, from the Christian book of worship and repurposes them. The story cycle and different mythos of Christianity are too well imbedded in Western anglophone secular culture for this book not to be tapped over and over and over again as source materiel.

    I think the real question being asked here by the probably long departed OP - and its a rhetorical question because only the OP can answer it - is: Do I have the guts to write a story that might offend friends and family, and maybe even God?

    That's why I answered this thread the first time even though this thread was resurrected via necroposting. The question that I believe is really being asked is one that is universally applicable and always relevant.

    A bajillion years ago I was a member of lulu.com's little bulletin board. There was a thread with lots of action that concerned Christians wanting to write fantasy. The whole conversation in the thread revolved around the angst and insecurity some Christians felt at wanting to write in the genre because of all the proscription the genre was getting from louder segments of their religions. They felt ashamed that they wanted to write it and they were discussing how to get over that, write around it, find ways through it, etc. I was baffled. I don't do theism at all in my real life, so I had no footing as to what all the shame was about. They were afraid to write stories that might offend family and friends, and in some cases, that might offend God. That last one is a biggie if you give stock to that kind of thing. I'm not in that game, but I don't pretend that that's not a big thing hanging over a writer who is in that game. So for that writer, whose paradigm includes that aspect, that's something to be considered.

    But for the rest of us, it isn't. And clearly for uncounted writers, it hasn't been. I say plainly that it is not a thing that should stay a writer's hand for whom the concept is just academic. It's not a risky move because every move is a risky move in writing. If you actually try to avoid all risk, then you risk a story that is so banal and boring it serves best as toilet paper. All my stories include LGBT characters. Always. In doing so, I know that I have written off a particular segment of possible customer who wants nothing to do with that. I don't care. And I certainly don't let that risk stop me from writing because I know for a fact that for every person who doesn't want my story because of the gay protag, there is someone else dying to read my story just because there is a gay protag. It's all risk. Every last bit of it, so it's a wash.
     
  25. LetaDarnell

    LetaDarnell Member

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    That makes perfect sense now. And doesn't seem all that offensive.
     

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