1. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia

    Name selections. What's good and what's not?

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Milamber, Oct 24, 2007.

    My book is full of angels. but they arn't realy like the fellas out of the bible, more like wizards. but since they are angels i had to come up with angelic names for them, Auriel, Selaphiel, Barachiel...
    and then there's the bad guys which had have names of fallen angels... Belial, Vassago, Gaap etc
    What i was wondering is that since these names are based on actual (fictional or real depending on what you believe in) angels and "demons". and these fellas have certain tendancies and atributes. Wikipedia says Nuriel is suposed to be the guy in charge of hailstorms. so would my angels and demons actualy have to have a certain amount of the original angel in them? or could they just be randomly mixed and matched?
    For instance could my Gaap be a small shriveled up excuse for a bad guy, if the bible says he's the most fearsome fella in the universe?
     
  2. Charisma
    Offline

    Charisma Transposon Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    2,704
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Lahore, Pakistan
    It's your choice, really. Your novel, your world, your visions. If you want to relate to legends then maybe you should give them a base which is coordinative with their legend.
     
  3. Banzai
    Offline

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,871
    Likes Received:
    150
    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Of course you can. As the author, it's up to you what you make your characters like. You can use names as subtle symbolic hints if you like (and I'm fond of doing this), or you can not. No one can tell you what's right or wrong in your own story.

    EDIT: Ah, anthraxx beat me to it. Listen to her :p
     
  4. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia
    Hmmm ok, when my book's a best seller ( :) )people start wondering why my characters dont act like their bible counterparts il refer them to you guys.
     
  5. Kit
    Offline

    Kit Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Nottinghamshire
    Like in the example you gave:

    Gaap being a small shriveled up excuse for a bad guy, when the bible says he's the most fearsome fella in the universe...

    That could be some rather humorous irony for anybody that knew the way that the bible described him. At the end of the day, it is your choice :)
     
  6. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia
    Ok then, ty. it woulda made a huge mess if i had to start changing random names. i dont think i'd understand anything again. it's already hard enuf for me to remember al the characters and their roles at the moment. :)
     
  7. Funny Bunny
    Offline

    Funny Bunny Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    6
    Whenever using characters that someone else has invented, I think it would be hard to really change them much. A Gaap fan (never heard of him/her or it) would probably not like someone changing the character much. If I was into angles enough to buy a book about them, I'd probably know them all. I think it would be better if you made up completely different names. You should also see if you can find who actually owns the copyrights on these angles. They may be public domain, I don't know. I know versions of the Bible are copy-righted. For example "vampires" are not copy-righted, but "Dracula," "Lestat," etc., are. "Angles," are not copy-righted, but "Gabriel" and other specific angles may well be. Fair use comes into play with "samplings" for example if I use "Gabriel" in a metaphor, I may not have to contact the holders of his copyright. If, on the other hand, I wrote a book about him (her?) I would probably need some sort of permission. There is also something about significantly changing characters in the artists favor. For example the author of "The Wind Done Gone," another perspective of "Gone With the Wind" won the copyright infringement lawsuit against her book by proving significant differences in the characters from the other book.
     
  8. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia
    the bible... is over 2000 years old... i thought copyright only lasted 70 yrs after the author died? :) lol

    and the angels... they're almost historical figures, if you look at it diferantly (although i'm probly just trying to bend things in my favour). i meen Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson wrote the prequel to the DUne books, and they had a lot of names like Xerxes and Agamemnon, and old roman/greek warlords for character's names. you don't see random Greek guys trying to sue them just because Agamemnon was a cyborg and Xerxes wasn't leading persian armies...

    and when i meen the angels have their own personalities and traits, it's pretty vague. most people arn't even sure of the exact names. So when i say Nuriel likes hailstorms, it was probably only mentioned once in one line of the bible, and history expanded on that. People are still fighting over whether Lucifer and the Satan are the same person. Some say that they are diferent people, lucifer was an angel who fell from heaven and the devil... well... he was the devil.
    Belial for example can be called Belhor/ Baalial/ Beliar/ Beliall/ Beli/ Matanbuchus/ Mechembuchus/ Meterbuchus depending on what part of the bible you're looking at. Religion is such a crazy thing no one is realy sure what's going on. so i think the chances of someone getting realy ticked off are slim. and then, it'd only be some priest who burns copies of the da vinci code on his weekends.

    And they are just 'called' angels. they're more of a race of beings who do magic but are realy tight about calling it magic, and they don't get along with humans. they dont serve a god or anything like that. so the only real angelic thing about them is the names, and they can fly around. I just didn't want to call them Bob and Jane...
     
  9. Domoviye
    Offline

    Domoviye Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,369
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Proud Canadian. Currently teaching in Nanjing, Chi
    Changing their personalities but keeping the names is fine. Most laymen can't remember various demon names, and only know a handful of the angels. A lot of regular people only know the less obvious names from pop culture. So you may have a few religious scholars complaining if you change them a lot, but your average reader won't care as long as its well written.
     
  10. Funny Bunny
    Offline

    Funny Bunny Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    6
    That's cool. God is not dead yet, supposedly. I thought he wrote it, so I guess 70 years after he dies you can use it. Ideas are not copyrightable. Specific works are. Bible versions and translations are indeed copyrighted, so you can't poo poo the idea. The angel Gabriel is a specific angel. These characters exist throughout the literature of the West, by the way. Every map drawn in the old days had the four corner wind angels. There is also more religion based writing using angels and devils as characters (Paradise Lost anyone?) Just in case you actually thought there was scant or vague reference to them. They probably have their own families and dogs the way they have been written about throughout that 2000 years. Angels were major characters in many literary traditions prior to the age of using "normal people" in fiction. Their myths and powers are cumulative. That is one writer or tradition, lending to another.

    So, when you actually just change them for your own book, you are really just adding to 2000 years of literature. How you add to that literature is your own business.
     
  11. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia
    Hey Paradise lost is like realy cool. NOw there's a book that's out of copyright lol!!!
    i've got it on my computer and have read like the first 5 pages, but cant find time to read any more between school and my own book. but school is finished for good in another year and i'll be able to read all the books i want! :)

    Paradise Lost is right up my alley. Although it is a bit hard to read, with all the crazy old words and stuff.
     
  12. Domoviye
    Offline

    Domoviye Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,369
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Proud Canadian. Currently teaching in Nanjing, Chi
    Ah theres a loophole there. According to the bible God only told parts of the bible to the various writers. They wrote it, God didn't. Since you can't copy right oral stories, we only have to wait for the person who put pen to paper to croak. Thus stories, people, angels, demons, and lessons from the bible can be used by newer writers.

    I think I put a bit too much thought into that.
     
  13. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia
    Yay the Devil is free for all!
     
  14. Funny Bunny
    Offline

    Funny Bunny Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    6
    lol-- well I guess you get the vatican falulkner award this year.
     
  15. Banzai
    Offline

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,871
    Likes Received:
    150
    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Just a bit, Dom...
     
  16. Funny Bunny
    Offline

    Funny Bunny Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    6
    Wait! There's more!!!

    You own all the rights to your ghostwritten book including the copyright. The ghostwriter does not participate in any royalties or other income you may ...

    Thus, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Etc do not own the copyrights, God does! So it is actually measured for 75 years after he dies. Also since everyone, Corinthians, Judges and so on affix their names to the Books, They are indeed taking credit for it. But I really argue that it is not an oral story and more a Biography, thus the writers who wrote it originall had the copyright. The writers who then translated it have the copyright now-- and that is legally who owns the copyright-- the translators. So, the Bible is under copyright. (The King James Version expired though. Have fun with the Iambic Pentameter).
     
  17. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia
    ... but god cant copyright... wat about people who dont believe in god? wouldnt they say that it was written by some insignificant guy from 3 thousand years ago? and it's not like we could know who actualy wrote it in reality.
    I've got nothing against cristianity (actualy i have a lot against religion in general, but i'm not going to bore you with my speech), but i'm just looking at this from an atheist point of view.


    Edit: Oh... translators... damn them all!!! but wouldnt these books have been translated ages ago? at least 75 yrs?
     
  18. Charisma
    Offline

    Charisma Transposon Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    2,704
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Lahore, Pakistan
    I'm a religious person, but as far as I know, that if you're taking names from a religious book, you're not ruining copyright. If the characters are similar to that of the book, it's still not violating copyright. If your idea is to mock those characters, or rewrite their stories and roles, well, not only copyright broken but also a serious heartbreak and immoral act.
     
  19. Zetta
    Offline

    Zetta Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2007
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    NC, USA
    As far as I know, so long as you don't blow anyone well-known and well-referenced (Satan, Gabriel) out of proportion, you'll be fine.

    Take a look at Eoin Colfer's The Wish List. He uses everyone from St. Pete to Beelzebub and Satan (Who are viewed as two different persons) and nobody so far as I know has sued him. He even references God as a person and not merely an influencing deity, and no one has taken offense yet, at least not publicly.

    So as long as you are realistic and don't do anything too blasphemous :)p) I think you'll be fine.
     
  20. Funny Bunny
    Offline

    Funny Bunny Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    6
    This is certainly a good point. I can understand writing about angelic or demonic type characters, and using the names, but in my mind, they should be the same ones (character, personality, and so on) in the original religious book. Which is why I feel you should stick with the original author's interpretation. I actually do believe that certain "characters" should not be changed-- which was why all the fun stuff about copyrights, but to be serious, these are beings that are part of a major religion, not just characters you can re-write. It seems pretty obvious. Religion is very powerful force in many people's life. So what can I say? Remember, in the Biblical tradition, evoking the Name was very powerful. Even today to ask for an angel's guidance or intervention is similar to asking Jesus or Mary to help you out. In this case, sensitivity and decorum should be your guiding principle.
     
  21. kmlovering
    Offline

    kmlovering Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    In a small town in Western MA
    I don't have an answer to your questions. Just a newbie, but I would be interested in finding the answer. I am in the process of a couple of ideas, which involve demons, and I decided to look up the meaning to Latin words, such as "destroy," which in Latin is "Serpilio." That's how I came up with a name. What does everyone think of this methodology?
     
  22. Milamber
    Offline

    Milamber Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Byron Bay Ausrtalia
    Thats sounds alrite. i just found babynames.com a few weeks ago and i use it all the time. i tend to go with nationalities eg french, russian, hebrew etc and then look at the individual names and what they mean.
     
  23. Bluemouth
    Offline

    Bluemouth Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    976
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Babynames.com is a site I would recommend to anyone who despises the process of figuring out a name for their main character(s).
     
  24. Klee
    Offline

    Klee Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Mexico, you got a problem with that?
    Behind the Name - the Etymology and History of First Names is also a good option when looking for names.

    But going back to the OP, I don't think it really matters if you character is exactly the same is the demon/angel who's name he/she shares.

    And speaking of which, most angel names you see in sites don't even appear in the Christian Bible.
     
  25. B-Gas
    Offline

    B-Gas Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    14
    My ten cents on angel names:

    Okay. The most important thing to do when you're farting around with Angels and Demons is to know what they are, and why they do what they do. It should probably be noted that most of the real angel names are translated from Hebrew, so making them up could be considered... well, kind of odd. I'd suggest trying to find someone who knows Hebrew and ask them about names- because some of them are really cool. Leliel, for example, means "Jaws of God"; Bardiel means "Humiliated Son of God"; Zeruel means "Arm of God", et cetera. Or, go for the Specific Names for Angels in Wikipedia. There's a resource and a half.

    As for copyright, I think that they're all considered public domain by this point. And even if they weren't, a character's name isn't nearly as important as the character. The same name, so long as it isn't stupidly exact (don't go naming anyone Frodo Baggins, no matter what), doesn't mean anything. You can name someone Harry and JK Rowling can't come with a lawsuit. (that said, naming someone Henry Plodder and having them have a curly-cue scar on their forehead et cetera would probably land you in hot water) In this case, it's a Hebrew translation of a nifty phrase. They can't attack you for that.
     

Share This Page