Political Threads and Forum Behavior

With you, that part you got right.


This part, not so much:

 

I see this thread is turning into a rumble as well.

Thank you all for illustrating my point perfectly.

 

Can we separate ourselves into the Socs and Greasers?

 

This whole exchange is a perfect example of why I prefer to have writing only discussions on writing forums. And just one last comment before I go somewhere more peaceful - first-hand experience is called anecdotal. It has no more validity than someone saying "'My grandfather smoked two packs of cigarettes a day and he lived to be a hundred! Your argument is invalid!". Especially when you made it clear you think everyone else's first-hand experiences are flukes.

 

for someone who doesn't like arguing you sure do a lot

there should be an award for the stupidest argument...

 

I picked on it because I felt it was an unfounded claim. In fact I find it can not be proven one way or the other. But you are right, it is insignificant. Just know I didn't pick on it just to pester you.

You are also right about me, and others who have repeated and extended upon my point, not conceding. Yet neither are you. This is exactly what makes it pointless. Even more so considering how little it matters. I for one would be happy to agree to disagree.

That's my final say in this matter.

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Now as for getting back on to topic, I stand by the idea of creating a subforum. Some may consider this unnecessary but I haven't heard anyone being fully against it yet (granted, I skimmed through the last two pages). Perhaps the mods can bring this to Daniel's attention?

 

No one is challenging your point. I, for one, am just saying not everyone is as averse to disagreement/discord as you seem to be.

And I find posts that say this is not allowed, that is not allowed, this is bad because you argue and disagree with people, no matter how politely, much more disagreeable than a debate, even a debate where people are impolite.


We all do live in different worlds.

 

You cannot seriously be claiming that your first hand experience amounts to 100% accuracy, can you? Your experience may have been limited and biased. I understand statistics and probability well enough to know that you can't make and average without data.

This is akin to likening all writers to the people who write fan fiction. There are different and distinct demographic within every group.

You also fail to take into account that an average gamer most likely isn't going to be isolated to that one group. There will be overlap. I will bet you that the percentage of overlap between gamers and writers is pretty high, especially since the ESA released their figures for last year that states the average gamer is 30...

In fact, from what you've said in this thread, you fit the category of the statistical average gamer.

I'm not targeting you for my own enjoyment... I like you, have since you joined and posted a thread about Jonah where we had a very civil discussion about religion.

I just don't understand why you can't back down from this. You have no evidence other than an opinion, and no reason to be so deeply entrenched in this erroneous view. This is the kind of thing that causes the debates to happen elsewhere... The refusal to admit that someone may have misspoke (or typed) and sticking to an entrenched point just because it would injure pride to back down.

And lambasting me with an affront to my knowledge of statistics and probability doesn't help, that was unnecessary and inflammatory.

But consider me backed down after this. I'm done.

-------------------------------------------

Back on topic, somewhat...

Ladies and gentlemen...

I present to you Irony at it's finest!

A thread about not debating, has become a debate, and an off topic one at that.

 

She's merely describing the problem with anecdotal evidence. I fail to see how that is a stupid argument. It's actually a very valid argument as arguments go.

 

Invalidating a statistic using one grandfather is anecdotal.

Claiming that the thousands of gamers I have met in my lifetime are all exceptions to a mysterious pool of mature, intelligent gamers is not.

How about this, I will change my unilateral statement to make it easier for you all to swallow.

We should be better at debating, because we are writers and we strive to communicate our ideas methodically and thought-out, and tend to think outside the box, which lends itself to opening up new avenues of dialogue.

We should be able to do this better than a group of four-year-olds.

Any takers on that?

 

You're right, Cog.

It's been three pages and several hours since I last checked, and rather than a reasoned discussion about what steps might be taken to keep discussions of political topics orderly, it's devolved into a heated spat on whether writers are smarter than gamers.

It's hopeless.

 

I can't help but think that if I were a villain, this would be the part where I would be laughing maniacally about my victory while all the citizens hang their heads in hopelessness, fearing their hero isn't going to swoop in and save them this time.

Hmmmm... I may have to go write something.

 

Maybe you should.

 

Ooh, cheeky. I like it.

 

You guys, I just want to say that this is magical. Just magical. You guys are the best.

 

This post is about critical thinking, not an attack on you personally, JJ. Please keep that in mind.

First, let's see your data. Did you collect it systematically and objectively or are you claiming your random unsystematic observations actually have merit? That's the least reliable anecdotal evidence. It's subject to selective memory bias.

Insulting people's intelligence does not make your case any stronger.

An hypothesis is not data.

Calling gamers 4 yr olds? Is that your premise? Not a very effective argument.

 

A thread hijack has occurred and for that I apologize for my contribution.

 

And I as well... My deepest apologies.

 

I apologize as well, more so than the others. It was my initial statement that started this derailment. My choice of wording was poor and as a writer, that is something I can't excuse.

I allowed my pride to get in the way and I'm sorry.

I love all you guys.

 

Here's what Daniel said about a seprarate debate forum:

Seems to sum it up but I wonder if that vote would be the same today as it was then.

 

I apologize, too. I started this thread; I should have tried to keep it on track. I didn't. Sorry, all!

 

So I'm guilty for aiding in the derailment of the thread which kind of proves a point that we need an outlet for opinionated discussions. I also think a separate debate forum would be a good idea. It would be a section easier to control and people would be more likely to follow the "Debate Guidelines". It's different entering a section specifically designed for arguments because people will enter it with a different mindset, than say, a thread with a political title in the lounge forum. They know if they don't follow the guidelines in a debate forum, there'll be consequences.

It's a similar structure to how the workshop forum is right now. That forum has been very good lately, people are providing helpful feedback and OPs are taking critique maturely. There's been little argument and I think it's because of a mindset everyone acquires going into that forum. There are do's and don'ts clearly written for that section.

 

Derailment aside, one thing that another website I used to frequent (a pretty intelligent site on competitive, high-level Pokemon for the record haha) did to encourage more relevant discussions was to rearrange the order of the forums. Putting the equivalent of 'The Lounge' at the bottom of the forum order below all of the more relevant forums meant that people tended to focus more on the forums that were more pertinent to the website's original function. I'd love to see the writing workshops given far more weight and usage personally- critiquing and being critiqued I'd imagine is one of the things that drew a lot of us to this website in the first place and it's a shame to see these forums go largely unused by a significant majority of the user-base.

I'd also agree that a debate sub-forum might be a good idea- it allows people who come here to write to focus on that. That said, there's something to be said for how debating helps increase written articulation skills- being able to make a point clearly and concisely in an argument is a valuable skill that debates help to refine and it'd be a shame if a writing website didn't give its members the opportunity to do so. Banning debates goes too far imo even if I'd love to see less of them and stricter moderation on the ones that remain.

 

That reminded me, maybe I should put this in the suggestions room, but it might be a good idea to really stress in the workshop area rules that please, please no "first drafts", "I vomited this in 15 mins" -type of stuff, cos they're pretty frustrating to crit. Errors and stuff get in the way, and the writer will be less likely to receive any useful feedback. I know it says in How to Use Workshops that:

But this is what we got in the WS even now:
"This is very manuscript-y so I apologize if the feeling is a bit disjointed"
"I wrote this without stopping or editing, so it's a very, very VERY rough draft of the first chapter."

So maybe a big right-out no-no to first drafts and non-polished excerpts?

 

I think this is the most entertaining thread in a while.

Behind the bike-shed pissing-contests - dime-a-dozen
Schoolyard name calling - 10-a-penny

The moment when everyone shakes hands and goes back to play - priceless!

By the way [MENTION=53143]GingerCoffee[/MENTION] - that second line was three lines below the original reply to [MENTION=30989]shadowwalker[/MENTION] so's not to be connected. The stupidest argument award was referring to who's more intelligent, writers or gamers. Being part of this community is not about seeing your post count rise or rushing round like pacman collecting little green bars