1. Mackers
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    Mackers Contributing Member

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    Scottish Referendum on Status

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Mackers, Feb 12, 2014.

    To the English people on this forum - what's their views on Scotland's possible independence from the UK? Was just on the bbc website...Touchy issue for some
     
  2. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    Hasn't this secession of Scotland been up for debate numerous times across the years? I ask because where I live, Puerto Rico, has had a similar storied history of bringing the matter of status before the federal government pretty much since the signing of the Jones-Shaforth Act in 1917.
     
  3. Mackers
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    There's a Scottish referendum on it this September, so the debate is highly topical at the minute.

    It's interesting from an Irish perspective, also, because I live in Northern Ireland which currently is under the jurisdiction of the UK, even though there's a sizeable nationalist population here who would like to see Northern Ireland leave the UK and unite with the republic of Ireland.

    I'm interested to see what happens...
     
  4. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Well, we Scots are not welcome then? :p

    It's not really a controversial subject for me. I'd like to see Scotland independent. I just don't think it should be right now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  5. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    Any country that produces excellent whisky should have its independence.
     
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  6. Mackers
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    Mackers Contributing Member

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    Didn't really know there were any Scottish people on here! lol...Are you not from Newcastle direction?

    Why do you not think it should be now? There seems a couple of sticking points to do with the currency. Scottish want to retain the pound for the time-being; English seem to be saying you can't have your cake and eat it at the same time.

    I know unionists in Northern Ireland will be looking at this with a bit of unease...
     
  7. jannert
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    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

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    Gosh. If not now, when?
     
  8. Mackers
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  9. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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  10. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    My family's Scottish, I'm a direct decedent of the Armstrong clan, and I've always considered myself if not Scottish then half Scottish. I used to live in Scotland too, Fort Augustus near Inverness. I might live in England, I was even born in England, but to quote Robbie Burns 'My heart in the Highlands, my heart's not here'.

    First of all, the economy of Scotland doesn't seem stable enough to me to really merit independence, and also there are some lingering partnership with the English and with the royals that could cause more bother than it's worth. I think the issue should certainly be gathering steam right now, but I just think right now independence will be a bit premature.
     
  11. Mackers
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    Nice one, didn't know that :)

    Fair enough, seems a bit of scare-mongering going on from the 'no' campaign at the minute, though. With any kind of big transition though, there's going to be teething problems. I think Scotland are well able to pull through and cope with any problems
     
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  12. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    So long as the question of sustainable economy is directly addressed. Again, making reference to Puerto Rico's on-again off-again bid for independence, economic structure is always the elephant in the room.
     
  13. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    This is right, the last thing I want is to see a country I love become a banana republic. Aside from tourism I don't see much that Scotland has that could create a lucrative and stable economy yet. People against Independence mention Scotland's oil reserves for very good reason.
     
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  14. jannert
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    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

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    In fact the No campaign has been throwing so many silly things into the mix that sometimes I just roll eyes. The silly threats. Turrets at the border—you can't visit your English grannie without a passport and strip search—just like there are turrets and strip searches at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Not. And the argument that Scotland is too weak and economically unstable to run its own affairs? If that is the truth, then why is the 'rest' of the UK so keen to hang on to it? You'd think, if Scotland were a drain on the resources, as so often implied, the rest of the UK would be delighted to see the back of it. But no...

    All these claims and counterclaims about what will/won't happen after independence are basically hot air. It's like saying exactly what a divorce settlement will entail before the decision to divorce has been made. Each side can say what it wants out of the arrangment beforehand, but it's only when the divorce is being negotiated that these settlements can be made. And ask any divorced person 5 years down the road, if they want to go 'back.' I'd say most of them are probably sorry they got married in the first place, but most are happy to move on.

    I personally am MUCH more frightened of another 5-years-plus under this present Tory 'coalition' than anything that might happen in an independent Scotland. It's not so much the money you've got, it's how you choose to spend it. I have every faith that Scotland would do well, and any Scottish government would make a point of caring for its citizens ...all of them, not just the rich ones.

    No country that has achieved its independence by ANY means has ever wanted to 'go back' afterwards. (At least I can't think of any, can you?) And no country that has ever achieved independence has ever known exactly what their future would look like beforehand. They all took the chance, knowing their future would be in their own hands, and they could take the decisions that work best for them.

    That's good enough for me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
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  15. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    I don't follow. Is it that there are reserves enough to count as bargaining chip, or the contrary, that there is none?
     
  16. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    There is apparently sources crude oil in the waters around Scotland, but how big they are I will not pretend to know. The economy question is something I've never admittedly studied in great depth. While I'd like Scottish Independence very much, I'm made personally nervous by the fact that I don't really have all the facts
     
  17. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    I agree with you here. Sorry to continue to reference my own situation, but, I have a friend who lives in Calexico, CA and who works there as a fellow interpreter for the court. When Puerto Rico's referendum was in the news this past year (2013) he sent me a note extolling how happy he was that perhaps Puerto Rico might gain independence and he was very supporting and all that jazz. I think he was rather taken aback when I told him that were it to happen, I would swim back to Florida, were there no other means to return. The call for Puerto Rican independence is an emotional one, and worse, the emotion and sentiment is of the latin variety, thus huge and melodramatic. There isn't a lick of reason to be found in the Independence Party (PNP). Puerto Rico has no sustainable economy. Even with all the help from the U.S. (which Obama is rightfully wanting to curtail) the infrastructure here is a giant sieve, created with what seems purpose, to leak at every possible joint.
     
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  18. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    It seems you and I are on the same leaf of the same issue, all you really need to do is change the names. :)
     
  19. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I lived in Montreal from the ages of 8 to 13 (the early seventies, mostly). My father worked for Hewlett-Packard there - that's where HP's head office was. There was a provincial election, and the separatists (the Parti Quebecois) won. They made plans for a referendum to have the province of Quebec leave Canada. HP and a lot of other companies didn't wait around - they hightailed it out of Quebec but quick! They moved the head office back to Toronto. That was the last I saw of Montreal.

    My point is that even the threat of leaving Canada damaged Quebec's economy. My assumption is that Scotland might suffer the same fate if they gain independence.
     
  20. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    i'd love to see scotland freed from english domination... just as i'd love to see the english get the bleep outa hibernia and let all of Éire be irish...

    just picture QEII and her progeny having to show their passports at the border, before heading to her castle at balmoral!... or, better yet, having it nationalized, so they'll have to do their shooting and trout fishing in their own country... :cool:
     
  21. obsidian_cicatrix
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    obsidian_cicatrix I ink, therefore I am. Contributor

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    ;) And then some. Every time this issue is raised, I can see the loyalist locals walking with just a bit more 'No Surrender' swagger to their gait.
     
  22. Mackers
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    I'll avoid Belfast like the plague then :D
     
  23. Gallowglass
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    Gallowglass Contributing Member Contributor

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    This doesn't reflect what's going on in the UK at all.

    Scotland isn't under 'English domination' - the United Kingdom doesn't work like that. It's a union of formal equals. The vast majority of Scots understand this, and if you were you stand in Scotland and talk of 'English domination' in the way you have done you'd be met with rolled eyes and slow hand-claps. English people are largely ambivalent or even vaguely supportive of Scottish independence, and there is no big, patriotic movement in Scotland itself; the referendum will be decided by its impact on Scottish wallets, and at the moment the unionist crowd has the advantage. I'm in Stirling right now, and the amount of flag-waving and slogan-chanting I see is precisely nil.

    As for Northern Ireland, it exists solely because a predominantly unionist population wants it to exist, but that's a whole other can of worms that probably shouldn't be opened within a five-mile radius of a forum...

    The government is, but I've not known many English people to have a strong opinion one way or the other. Most that express one tend to favour Scotland leaving.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
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  24. Gallowglass
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    This just in: Scotland can't keep the pound, or the EU.

    Independence is at this point a busted flush, unless some political MacGyver can pull it back from the brink.
     
  25. Mackers
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    Mackers Contributing Member

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    Establishment politicians put the fut down on this issue. It wasn't even up for negotiation...
     

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