The dreaded furrowed brow and narrowed eyes

It's possibly stylistic , sure, but I think we can both agree it takes a certain skill to avoid rather common expressions, even if you want to argue the potential importance of such expressions.

 

?

Is that a typo? Do you mean "avoid"? That's the only way I can make the post make sense...

So, assuming that's what you mean - sure, I guess it would take a certain skill to avoid mentioning common facial expressions, just like it would take a certain skill to avoid using the letter "n" in a story. I'm just not sure why anyone would bother developing that skill, or why it would seem like a sign of a better-written story.

 

Sorry meant avoid. Let me debate this with you later on a real keyboard. I think this is actually a very important topic.

 

It's more about the context than content. If someone said something deeply hurtful to the person behind you, you wouldn't need to turn around to know they are hurt. There would either be silence or verbal/physical lashing out. I think conveying those reactions is more powerful than a "furrowed brow," although there is nothing wrong with that phrase once in a while.

 

Artist, not to rain on your parade, but you seem to be quoting Ms Lawson quite a bit, so I looked up her website. Although she has had a very interesting professional life, there's nothing there pertaining to writing, indicating she's an 'expert' on writing, or that she's even published a work of fiction. I would suggest you check out a few writers for discussions on this issue, to give you a taste of some other perspectives, and not rely quite so heavily on one person's opinion.

 

She offers master courses on writing and she edits. Several of her grads are the published and award-winning writers you are referring to, and if you want I can dig through the lectures and post the names of her graduates whose work she quotes as examples (not to be mean, I mean I really will if you want the names- you didn't dig deep enough). I quoted her because I just read that pertinent bit in the material before me, but her opinion is hardly her own. I repeated her quote because in my opinion it was misread. I've read several articles and books by authors that say you should avoid cliches and overused phrases like "pouring rain", "the pungent odor," "a solitary tear rolled down her cheek," and "he was visibly shaken" to name a few. As a matter of fact, I thought this was a standard suggestion by editors? That seems to be the overwhelming message I am getting- "cliche=bad", "overused phrase=boring". Sure, it is a stylistic choice, but my post is to ask for a few examples or ideas of how to move past those. Margie Lawson wasn't even on my radar when I first read about such writing no-no's.

I just typed in "avoiding cliches in writing fiction" in google and found that on the first two pages alone, I have visited over half the links at one time or another- none of them written by Dr. Lawson and all read BEFORE I saw that quote yesterday. I think people are attacking my source when it's not relevant to the message.

And if you are referring to the word "smile", I typed in "writing smiles fiction" and saw that I had read three articles on the matter as well. Here are two:

• http://blog.karenwoodward.org/2013/02/describing-character-reactions-and.html
• http://www.novelpublicity.com/2013/02/bring-your-fiction-to-life-with-emotion-an-editors-how-to-guide/ (particularly the last example that stuck with me)

Then of course there is Allen Guthrie's Infamous Editing List for writers that I was reading just the other day. #29:

Excellent resource. Highly recommend it.

Hey, I have no qualms about books that use the word "smile" in engaging ways. 59 smiles seems like a lot to me, but if they are used in fresh ways then maybe I was wrong. 123456789 used two examples of 50 smiles to make a point that they weren't used very much- I admit, I'm a beginner writer. Maybe 50 times isn't a lot of uses of the word. To take from one example that you posted, here is the first smile instance I found from the book A Kiss from Midwinter:

Perfect example- great use of the word. It's not just a beat, but it conjures an image. Exactly what I am trying to say.

I really think we are trying to agree here. Margie Lawson aside, think about what she said because it's the message the matters- rarely use the word smile in a stand alone way and your writing will be more fresh. She's not saying don't use the word smile. She's not. Read it again. She says try to strive to move beyond using it as a beat. We agree in that regard, yes?

If it were me, I'd try to minimize my smiles to under 15 uses in a full length novel, and none of them stand alone. Sure, maybe that means I have to dig deeper, but editors know the industry better than I do.

I admit, I am getting lost in your logic. Can you clarify what you mean by the authors and the word usage again? If you are suggesting that Hemmingway is better than the examples that Bayviewer listed, I am not qualified to make that assessment. I haven't read all of them. The classics might be revered at this day and age, but who is to say in 100 years for the modern list?

To the rest of your message, I am not sure what you are saying/asking. Are you asking for a reply, or is that supposed to be a suggestion?

 

I agree with the first part of your comment. Thanks for the tip. As to there being nothing wrong with using the term "furrowed brow" once in a while- maybe. To be honest, this is the article that caught my attention about the whole thing:

I agree with everything this editor said. The "furrowed brow" is another one of those tired phrases. I'm not saying it's wrong to use it, only that I want to move past it.

TO ALL- here's another article I was just reading the other day that I forgot to mention- from another editor:

He goes on to give a list of what he calls "trite mannerisms" to be avoided including the furrowed brow and the narrowed eyes. I pasted the list into a resource file I keep for writing tips a few days ago. Several resources have led me to my desire to move past them.

Thanks for all those who offered help.

 

You're a new writer, right?

I think a lot of new writers get really caught up in trying to turn writing into a sort of science. They read a lot of other people's opinions on how to do things 'right', and they really like rules. It's not bad. But I think it's a phase a lot of writers move out of.

And there are a lot of websites that feed rules to new writers, either for profit or because authors are told they 'need' to be blogging and are hunting for ideas to come up with, or out of genuine enthusiasm for the craft and a wish to share their ideas with others. Some of these websites may be valuable, but a lot of them are not.

I've been writing for about five years and have about twenty books either published or in editing to be published. Most of those are with small publishers, but my next two books with be coming from Penguin. So I think I have at least as much authority as a lot of the people offering advice on most websites, and certainly as much as the authors praising Margie Lawson on her site. For me, the only writing rule is 'make it work'. And by 'work', I mean write something people want to read. Make your writing flow, and chose the words that do the job you want done.

Sometimes, that word is going to be 'smiled'. X said something, then smiled. X said something, and Y smiled in response. People smile, and 'smile' is a good word to describe that expression.

I'd stop trying to work so hard to make your writing 'fresh'. Try to make it good. Try to tell an interesting story about compelling characters. Chose the words that will most effectively convey these characters and their stories.

If you're writing poetry or something, that's bad advice. But if it's novels... tell a good story.

 

Based on the numbers in the handful of samples, I'm not overusing any of the words in question. (Even if some of the uses aren't great)

I don't tend to use such things purely as beats anymore, because they are easy to overuse. But if I do specifically want to convey emotion I will use the occasional grin, frown etc.

I don't quite see the inherent problem with occasional stand alone smiles. Can't they just be there for a little hint on someone's reaction? Do they really always need an elaborate similie or metaphor drawing attention to themselves?

I do agree that common turns of phrase should mostly be avoided outside of dialogue. Either come up with your own or say things plainly. I don't like furrowed brow, because to me it's just a cliched way to describe a frown.

I agree that facial expressions that aren't seen much in real life are more dangerous. I'm not a fan of the raised eyebrow for this reason.
Though I guess ones perceptions of what's common can be coloured by who you know in real life. My wife's family seem to be frequent eye narrowers. I seem to have two instances of it in the novel I'm working on.

 

Artist, I'm just saying that if you're going to quote someone and call them an expert, it should be someone with the actual credentials to back them up. Yes, she's saying things that a lot of writers say - so quote the writers, not the non-writer who probably found the same websites you did. (And I seriously doubt that it was Ms Lawson's class that was exclusively or even mostly responsible for those authors getting published - there's more to it than that.) But, as mentioned above, never take any one person's opinions as law, and don't worry so much about the "artificial" mechanics ("I should use a different word or phrase so it's unique") - just tell a good story.

 

She does have excellent credentials Shadowalker. I respectfully disagree with you there. She's an editor, editors know the industry. Look, I appreciate you trying to help, but you're hung up over one name instead of the message. I've listed several sources that say the same thing. Thus, Lawson is part of the consensus. And really, her students DO credit her with their success. Might I suggest something? Buy one of her lecture packets. Any of them. It will open your eyes- and I mean fundamentally change the way you think about paralanguage and dialogue cues and deep editing. Yes, she is only one name, and let me say it again- I quoted her twice because people kept saying she said to rarely use the world smile when she said such authors rarely use them stand-alone. I SAID that 50 smiles seemed like too much, not Lawson who never gave a number. That was ME. You haven't said anything about her message, or anything else relevant to help with the two phrases, except to discredit my source. You can discredit what I SAID, sure. I even admitted that maybe I was wrong a post ago. Oh, and I found a blog where she lists some of her grads (some use pen names).

It's a lot like art- and I am a published artist. I've drawn hundreds of illustrations, for small publishers to big name video games companies (like the people who did comand and conquer, dune, and star wars), and to being commissioned by photoshop magazine for a tutorial. The one thing I tell anyone trying to break into the field is to learn the rules first- so you know WHY you are breaking them. But you have to know them. If you break them ignorantly, and it doesn't work, your client can come in and say, that proportion is off, and you can't fix it because in college you shirked figure drawing class. Or, you can inform him that head-proportion is different in the comic world(it is) and you consciously made a choice to make it smaller.

So before I give up on writing fresh, shouldn't I try it first? Isn't it worth it, to me as a writer, to keep checking out books from the library, taking master writing courses (one lecture at a time), and investing in my craft? Because I honestly can't see a downside. This post is asking for fresh ways to write two phrases. Instead I seem to be devoting all of my energy to debate.

Yes, I am a beginner, that's why I read about writing. That's why I came to you for help. Your advice is to ignore most of what I've learned and defer to you because you're published- which I could do, yes. You've certainly shared valuable advice, but I'm sorry, I will keep reading. It's not because I am ungrateful of your time, but because I know I am so far from the goal and I need all the help I can get. I won't get there on my own. I simply won't.

 

I don't think credentials are important for style issues. We're not talking grammar rules. We're talking about advice about style which is ultimately a personal thing. It could speak to someone and become their core and to another it remains nothing more than hot air. Does that mean the advice is bad? No. It just means it doesn't work for that person. I think Artist shared some interesting links - I especially loved the Mannerisms in fiction.

I'm kinda anti-was. Last year, or maybe before that, I read something that made anti-was my core to writing. Have I let up on it? A bit - but by starting off being conscious of and learning to alter my sentences to avoid it I really improved my writing. Since then I've moved on to mood -

I actually love when someone finds something that speaks to them and motivates them to view things differently. It shouldn't really matter who it comes from either. One of the best most helpful critiques I ever got on one of my stories was from a 17 year old girl. One of the worst was from someone with actual writing credentials.

 

I saw nothing in her "about" page that listed professional training as an editor. Otherwise it was all about her being a psychologist with an interest in writing (although I couldn't find any books written by her). Not to beat a dead horse or derail, but all I'm saying is that if you're going to use someone as a reference, it should be someone who has the background to back it up. If there are people who have that background saying the same thing, use them. (And I have no interest in purchasing something that I can find free on the internet, thank you.)

And with that, I'm done.

 

The problem I see is the apparent over-reliance on someone who has no more experience with writing than any random person who's picked up a pen. Obviously, one should be open to ideas from wherever they come from - but that's different from what I've been seeing here. But as I said, no sense beating a dead horse.

 

Maybe I am too. *Headdesk*

 

Her academy employs several authors. As of 2011:

"We now have 30 courses and 12 instructors, including C.J. Lyons, Sharon Mignerey, Vannetta Chapman, Jeanne Stein, and Shirley Jump."

Award-winning, and some best-sellers. They know what they are doing, friend. They really do. Again, the grad blog- http://www.margielawson.com/margies-writing-blog

 

I don't want to get into a big argument here. But I honestly think everything has gotten twisted around on this thread. Which is a shame cause it's a legitimate discussion that can be extremely helpful. Here's what I'm assuming based on Artists quote what she got from what she read -

Considering on several sites I can't usually get one person to recognize this fact, when I do a critique, I'm not sure why it would ever be looked on as a negative? No matter who or what triggered this revelation.

Even if it's taken too much to heart, the only thing that will happen is Artist ( like I with my anti-was ) will overdo it and then realize the occasional hushed tone can eek its way in without catastrophe. But while she consciously avoids them, the writing should be improved because those missing details will have to be supplied with fresher details. It's a win/win situation.

 

No, my advice is to NOT defer to me, or to anyone else, including any of the people you've been reading about. When I posted my credentials, such as they are, I wasn't trying to set myself up as an expert, I was just trying to show that there's diversity of opinion, and just because someone's gotten a book published doesn't mean you have to do what they say.

You think you're going to write something 'fresh' by following a bunch of rules? Okay, go for it. See how it goes. (I mean that sincerely - maybe it'll work for you, and if it does, fantastic.)

My concern about posting this arbitrary 'rule' as if it's ... well, as if it's actually a real rule... is that other people may read it and absorb it and believe it, rather than looking at it critically. And, more importantly, looking at their writing critically, and judging it based on how effective it is, rather than how many so-called rules it has or has not followed.

 

There are no rules in writing.

There are rules of grammar. There are rules of punctuation. There are rules of POV/first person/third person/Omni ...

There are rules of format. There are rules when submitting to an prospective agent/publisher and there are rules on what you can upload to ebook sellers.

As for writing ... No Rules. The boundaries are too many and too far apart. There are too many genres, too many avenues, too many options for there to be a set of rules that all writers can abide by.

So, I repeat, there are no rules in writing.

If you want to write, just bloody write! Do not put too much stock in so-called experts (many of which are just experts in fleecing wanna-be-writers out of hard earned cash by offering them a writing course at a retreat in the middle of no-where so long as you purchase three of the expert's books which just happen to be the course's required reading ...)

Just ... bloody ... write!

By all means, look up whatever expert you want to look up, read what they have to say, even act on their advice if you wish but if you then want advice from people on this forum, ask your question straight out and if you come across someone who doesn't agree with you or your expert, accept that they have an opinion just like you do. Don't go throwing your expert's opinion at them, expecting them to verify it for you.

Writing is a form of art. Did anyone tell Dhali that he wasn't allowed to paint clocks hanging on tree branches because it defied the rules of reality?

Did anyone tell Lowry that he wasn't a 'proper' artist because he drew matchstick men?

(apologies for ranting)

 

Let's stick to the topic of how to capture expressions, why don't we. We've had several threads on the subject of education vs write what works in General Writing, so if you wish, feel free to continue that there, thank you.

 

I firmly believe that watching real people's expressions is the way to go.

I agree that expressions are as individual as people insofar as spiders make me shiver but make my daughter run from the house screaming her head off but the basics, smiles = happy, frown = confusion, wide eyes = surprise, etc are almost all universal.

It's the way you convey that expression to the reader.

For example, rather than saying 'he furrowed his brow' you could say 'I watched as he tensed his brow, fully aware that a question I didn't want to hear was about to be asked.'

 

I'm sorry, but the cussing and the ranting is really disheartening. Did you not get the part that I said SHE WAS ONE VOICE IN MANY SAYING THE SAME THING?

My whole post has been this- I want help learning to write based on one specific type of writing- fresh writing. I offered many, many resources BY OTHER PEOPLE to illustrate the type of writing I want to write- that I want to cater to what these editor's are saying, that I like that style of writing, and I want to emulate it, and can you please help me get there? Not that the other way is WRONG, but it is TIRED, and I wand to be better than that. Why do you and everyone else want to spend your time convincing me to give up a legitimate quest to better my writing in favor of something else-? That's not what this post was about. Your rant did nothing but hurt, not help. If I ask for a recipe on how to make chocolate icing, why would you insist on giving me one for cream cheese and tell me that I'm being unreasonable when I say, no, I'd rather like the chocolate instead, thanks?

I acknowledge that there are different opinions. Sure thing. But I asked for help emulating a specific type of writing- one that doesn't employ cliche's and overused phrases. I hardly think that's going to keep me from looking at things critically, in fact, rather the opposite. But I think I understand your premise, and I thank you for your time.

 

Much more helpful. Thank you!

 

My way of avoiding cliches ( when I can ) is to create a mood in which the scene is so clear in tone, character and content that the cliched gesture is usually not needed. In fact by putting it in - I can actually make the scene redundant. It's sort of like when you write - "GET OUT OF MY WAY!" you don't really need the 'he yelled' tag.

And likewise imagine you've created a scene - I'll use the wonderful walk home scene from It's Wonderful life as an example - where two young, wouldbe lovers are walking home and one keeps stepping on the others only means of covering - her robe. And when she finally loses the robe and must dash naked into a bush and the boy picks up the robe and says "This is a very interesting situation!" Do you need to add the smile? Probably not, or you could lean it from her angle and say - She could hear the smile in his tone and begged May I please have my robe.

I like to work in a circular manner - setting, character's opinion - slanted sentences, dialogue, gesture. That way I might start with the character frowning - but it eventually gets altered to blend with the scene. In Not Pink I have Hart frown on page one but I attempt to keep it fresh by stating - He points the frown directly at me. Not great mind you- lol, but it fits.

 

Your question was asked in such a way that you were requesting a chocolate icing recipe because the one you had gotten from so many other voices was not quite convincing enough.

Or were you just asking us to say "oh yes, use her recipe, do what she says because she is so right ..."

And, just for the record, I can't make cream cheese frosting. I've tried, it always ends up smelling like bad feet so I now stick to buttercream.