The God Question

I jused to be mildly religious when I was younger, but to much has happened since then. I simply can't believe in some being that created the world and watches over us. I've experienced to much pain to believe in some greater being that protects me from harm and eventually brings me to some higher plane of existance if I live according to His rules.

So I stick to the saying "Ignorance is bliss". If there is nothing once I die, I never wasted a moment thinking that there was, and if there is someone who judges me when I die, he will see why I did the things I did, and judge me accordingly. So be it. I'm not anti-religious, religion can comfort a lot of people, including some people very dear to me. I have a problem with the "religious"-leaders who force an their view ofthat religion onto the world (the Vatican, but also Muslim and Jewish leaders). They are the once who do evil in the name of their religion.

 

Not all of them do evil. Every religious belief has its evil bugger's who hide behind their beliefs. But at the same time you cannot tie everyone who believes in that religion to the same handle.

I am not religious and I believe we'll find out when we die whether theirs something more or not. But at the same time while I don't support religion I also do not condemn it. and I do not condemn those Catholics and Muslims who bear the wrong doing of the nutter's. You have to remember in every form of religion there are those nutters that will try hard to impose their views on others.

 

We're the creature that's been severed from pure instinct. We have an excess of thought that isn't filled with behavioural coding, what we have instead is the power of rational thought to define our existence.

Doing that is a damned scary prospect, so many of seek to fill in the space with other forms of coding. It's something that we've struggled with since ancient times - it's not just 'philosophy' or 'religion', it's the attempt to define what we should believe when it comes to the 'truth' of our reality and purpose.

As some of the ancient Ionian philosophers might have told you, though, your god is yours to define, because 'god' is only really the human mind. Everything here is a human abstract construction - even religion, so each human should always logically test the validity of those constructions to the best of their ability, and never blindly follow them like an animal following its instincts. You're selling short your own existence when you don't.

When you've gone some way towards doing that, the path you want to take becomes clearer, whether or not you choose religious faith.

 

I was raised Christian, always went to Christian schools and church, and unquestionably followed the Christian faith. But somehow, I've begin to lose that faith and find another. I've waivered constantly between atheism, agnosticism, and Christianity. But I believe that there is a God. The world is too complex and beautiful to be random. Maybe it doesn't matter what beliefs you have, as long as you have them. I think I believe in heaven, and don't believe in hell. I'm not sure. Maybe there's more than one way to heaven.

But I believe in a God. Whether he listens to us or not, I believe he exists.

 

Strange. I find the world too complex and beautiful to have been designed. Only billions of years of struggling for sheer survival could have honed that perfection

Personally I feel that whether you choose to believe in a god or not, your belief in yourself is the only one that matters - how you define yourself and how you choose to act towards others - the strength of your own moral conscience.

That's not something you should follow, it's something you should rationalise to really posses it.

 

Ever look at fractal images? They are amazingly complex looking, but most are generated from very simple mathematical expressions applied repeatedly.

A small number of simple rules can generate fantastically complex and beautiful phenomena. No conscious planner is required.

 

I was raised in a very strict independent Baptist church. I will admit that the Christian belief never worked for me, even as a kid. This is a personal hang up, but I’ve always wanted answers from religion that make sense, or that are at least grounded in reality.

I am an atheist.

 

Who invented fractal images?

God.

 

That is one interpretation.

It assumes there is a "who" that invented fractal geometry. With that assumption, a deity is the logical choice. But using an assumption to prove itself is what is called a "circular argument."

Of course, the existence of a circular argument cannot be used to prove that no deity exists. At some point, it comes down to Faith.

My faith is placed in the physical laws and properties which define the universe and drive how it operates. Yours is placed in an intelligent force that defines and manipulates those laws amd properties.

 

I find the issue of religion to be troublesome. I just cannot understand or even begin to fathom why there is so much anger involved with faith. These people that get involved in wars, and crime "In the name of GOD" I just do not see how it is possible, if there is a just and loving GOD that he/she would allow us to kill each other in it's name. I do believe in a God of some sort, although i do not know what it may be. I believe in being a good person and respecting others, but i am not about to go join a church and give them my time or money to be told what to believe. Especially when there are more hypocrites in church than not. I do not attend church because i feel it is unnecessary. But if you feel it is necessary to devout your life to god, then feel free.

 

You know who else gets involved in these things? Just about every other group including the non-religious ones. It's a non-factor in statistics. Those who are religious are no more or less likely to be involved in war and crime than others (if anything history proves they are less likely to be involved in theses things).

 

Prove it.

I can prove how fractal images form. I can present understandable theories that explain nearly every phenomenon in our lives, yet there is no evidence for, or proof of, the existence of "God". Every debate of this nature deteriorates into a single issue..."faith", blind faith at that. If your "faith" gives you comfort, then I am happy for you. My atheism actually answers many questions for me and provides the same peace of mind.

 

Tell that to the families of 3000+ victims of the Islamic extremist attack on the World Trade Center.

 

Easy there, guys. Seems to be getting a bit warm in here...

 

I didn't say they don't do it. I said that religion is not a direct factor in the likely hood of committing violent acts. For every muslim who kills a person there are hundreds more who have never killed anyone or committed any crime what so ever. You can't generically classify muslims as terrorists because extremist groups go around and blow people up. Would you walk up to a random Catholic priest and arrest him for child molesting just because? No. Because religion is not an indicator of the likely hood of actions occurring on it's own.

Even those muslim extremists, were Islam completely removed from the face of the earth, would likely still be extremists and would likely still be doing what they're doing. Islam just gives them an excuse and motive. If they didn't have that, they'd find another one. Even those child molesting priests, were they not priests, would probably find another method of molesting children. Something can provide an excuse or a method by which to commit crime but doesn't make that thing bad. Everything has it's criminals. To point out religion in particular is silly. Being part of a generic group does not automatically classify one as a criminal if one sub-group in said group is.

A child molesting roman catholic priest is Roman Catholic, but a Roman Catholic Priest is not automatically a child molester because of that. I direct you to the following logical fallacy (Hasty Generalization Fallacy).

If we were to generically classify groups as murderers and war starters by what they believe in, here's the list you'd have: Everyone. Guess we're all in jail now... darn that boy down the street for playing with matches and setting fire to that building. Now we're all arsonists if we're christian, white, in our teens, and have black hair and brown eyes.

 

Please note, you cannot create something out of nothing. but let us not continue that arugument as you will end up saying, well then where does god come from... a continuous cycle of doom.

 

The argument about first causes is a bit weak. Of course, if you accept the notion of a singularity before the Big Bang, you don't have a problem, since causality breaks down in a singularity. The question "what caused the Big Bang?" becomes meaningless, like "what countries are north of the North Pole?".

Note: Theists can pull a similar move, by positing a God 'outside of time', and hence, immune to causality.

I tend to apply Occam's Razor, and stick with explanation #1.

On the religious violence vs mundane violence: It's important to note that none of the major conflicts of the 20th century involved religion as a primary motivational factor. World War I and II were about state power and political ideology. The Cold War, Vietnam and the Korean war were offshoots of the Cold War.

Religion does not get a free pass: It may not always be the ultimate motivator, but it has given plenty of impetus to some conflicts. The Taiping Rebellion killed 20 million people, thanks to some chap who decided he was Jesus' brother. The Crusades are another good example - even if greed was an important motivator, it's doubtful they'd have gotten off the ground without a strong religous element. Al Qaeda gains a lot of strength from tapping into Muslim traditions.

Right now in Uganda, a group calling themselves the Lord's Resistance Army are waging a bloody rebellion. Their manifesto calls for replacing the constitution with the 10 commandments.

 

I studied an awful lot of philosophy and as such, find myself unable to draw up the raw, unshakeable faith needed to believe in religion and, sadly, many other things. Thus, I'm an atheist.

 

God is a very very complex subject to even contemplate let alone 'find'

Many people assume that God can only exist through religion, which I believe is not only misleading but plain implausible.

To make sure you avoid this misconception, I'd highly suggest you look up a bunch of philosophical arguments concerning the existence and (more importantly) nature of God (I'll get back to you with the names of some philosophers, I forget, haha).

But be careful, because there's another trap here too. Such philosophical arguments should not be based upon the premises of any authority (like that proposed by religion, especially the monolithic religions), so if you ever come across any arguments using religion as any of their premises, just stop reading.

After uni is over, I plan to write an essay discussing the existence and nature of God, so when it's complete I'll inform you.

 

I think I may have been misinturpreted.

I don't assume the God only exists through religion. Whether the discussion be about God, religion, ethics, the soul, the after life or anything else, I find the influence of God and his existence illogical and impossible. And I don't have faith, so that throws a spanner in the works too. I'm with Bertrand Russell on this one.

I'm going to bow out of this respectfully now.

 

This board has a lot of atheists...

No disrespect, just saying.

 

Ironically enough

it is logic that limits us.

 

Former non-practicing Christian, current panentheist with beliefs heavily influenced by some American Indian beliefs of the area I live in. (If anyone reading this doesn't know what a panentheist is they're free to Google it.)

That's where I stand on it. There's a bunch of more detailed stuff on particular issues but I shan't bother getting into it, I doubt more detailed/personal posts are read much anyway. I know I didn't really bother reading the other replies. And I don't see the point of debating others' beliefs.

 

Anti-intellectualism? That isn't a very strong argument.

 

Well, if God exists, he is outside of logic. Therefore, we cannot logically explain his existence. Once we start applying logic, it all gets too confusing. It really boils down to people's beliefs. For example, applying logic to this argument would come up with these conclusions (and more)

-God does not exist, because it is not logical.
-God exists, and is outside logic.
-God exists, and works completely through natural events and logic that we cannot fathom. (my belief)