1. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Too Nice? 2 - Too Pure?

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by GuardianWynn, Nov 18, 2015.

    Before you question my topic. I am referencing the fact I opened a topic titled "Too Nice?" Which was me just gushing a character concept and asking if you guys thought he was soo extreme that he was sort of bad.

    This is sort of the same thing. Except not sure nice is the right word.

    See, the girl. In my work actually died. But she lived a great life before dying- even if she died young.

    See, she was a master of the arts. Great singer, an actress, even a master of magic, to which she used for self defense as well as entertainment.

    I am nearly convinced a nicer person could not exist. She is the kind of person, that if a mugger attacked her and tried to steal her purse. She would invite them to dinner. In the sense that this is what she would believe:

    "A hungry man is no enemy of mine. I can't imagine the desperation his situation has caused him. A kind word, some encouragement and perhaps a sympthatic ear? If we, who have more bread than we need, were to share it with them more often? Perhaps we may find a world of less muggers tomorrow."

    Not to say she can't be angry, but it is certainly a rarity.

    She is quite humble too. She is quite honestly the best magician on Earth, and yet she refuses to adknowledge it. Shrugging off praise as nothing she has earned.

    Thing is, tragically she dies at a young age. She had two daughters, a 4 year old and another daughter that was born just before she died. She died from injuries she recieved a few days before.

    Thing is. In the afterlife, I can see how she would react to what happened. And yet, I don't think her reaction is what we would expect.

    She was a great person, to whom helped more than could have even been expected of her. Kind as could be, and she was killed as a means of extorting her husband. The man that killed her has killed millions. And is holding her husband against his will under the threat of returning and killing the two daughters.

    The daughters ar completely unaware of this.

    If there was anyone to be angry at. It would be him. Right? Yet I can't see her hating him. I see her being told these things in the afterlife and I see her reaction being like this.

    "It is horrible, but anger feels wrong. To hate, feels like I should have had expectations to something else. To expect the universe to bend to my favor? That feels wrong. I am sad, very sad that I will not get to hold my daughters, or raise them, but that won't stop me from loving them. I had a great life, even if it was short. Some don't even get that. Plus, if I allow this man that destroyed me, to curse me with anger. Then I lose even more. I think I have let him take enough. I will not permit him to take away my smile. As of now my daughters are alive and living quite happily. What more could I ask for?"

    If asked if she hates the man that killed her. I see her saying.

    "No. I feel sorry for him. To be so deluted that we would destroy the flowers that have yet to bloom for any reason. I feel he is misguided. And I am sad for that. Don't get me wrong. I am not planning on doing him any favors, but if I were presented with a chance to rescue him, by which I mean help restore him of what ever casted him down into such darkness. I would. For what reason does keeping soemone in the darkness serve? I may not like him, but we are all pieces in a greater structure. My goal, as it always was, is to that structure. If he can become a force of purity, than he is my ally. Even if I may still not like him."


    So what do you guys thing?

    Is she way to pure? Do you kind of wish you knew someone like this in life? I imagine she would be a delight to talk with. :)
     
  2. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    People like this demand explanation. My initial impression is that this goes one of two directions. The first, that this is satire and is an indictment against the denial of human nature in organized religion or some sort of self-help program. The second, what I think you intend, is that this person really is "saintly." Why so? I'm not into fantasy, but I never viewed characters as being much different ethically from the real world, but I'm not the expert on what to expect in fantasy. Did she come to enlightenment, was taught it at a young age, or some other explanation? Is the compassion a stand-in for "love your enemy?" As it stands, with no backstory, I find the character unappealing.
     
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  3. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    She's smiling, consistently smiling, while her husband is still a miserable captive? To me, that's not kindness, that's a loss of half of her empathy. If others' happiness makes her happy, but others' pain and misery leaves her unmoved, then I don't call her a kind or a good person.
     
  4. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    I suppose I should delve into her more.
    I mean for myself. I haven't fully invented her backstory. I am not sure if she is overcame a harsh world, and as such understands it, or if she was born with oppertunity and just never was tainted by having priviage.

    The parts I know, is that she is studied. No way her talent is completely innate. She studied. She also fell in love with man of great strength also, but that doesn't say much. I think they loved each other because of how much strength they saw in each other. Since the man was more of a "never back down even when his ribs are broken" kind of person. While the girl I see as never really being in that position, but her own strength of mind is valid too.

    Thing is. I think I see her as a possible result of our ethics. She is not purely saintly I don't think. She will fight and defend herself as well as her position, she might even kill if it came down to it. It's funny I can see her reaction to you. I think it would be something like.

    "Because I am not an asshole, then I must not have any basis in reality?"

    I see her as this really nice character but with an assertive side. Some of the lines I said above in the original post. They show sort of this almost ultimate kindness without being a door mat. As quick as she is to try and help a mugger, she still would defend herself from him and watch him carefully. She would not put herself in a taxing position. And that case implied that she understood that was his problem. Had his problem been something a sympthetic ear could not solve, she likely would have just defended herself and left.

    Maybe it is because when I think ultimate kindness there is always this sense of doormat that goes with it. While here is someone that is nice as one could hope but at no point does that nice nature prevent herself from being confident or assertive.
     
  5. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    lol. Moments like this I try and do in her voice. And I think that is her voice, but I think you are right. Not that she is unmoved, but rather taking effect to be unmoved. Like she is saying this but thinking to herself.

    "Be strong. Come on, be strong. Don't cry, do get mad. It wouldn't help. My family is in danger and I can't help them. Not now, but I will keep my composure. I will be strong. I will be an example. I will be ready if a moments arrives in which I can help. Depression and fury are not the state of mind I should be in if that moment comes to exist. "

    If that makes sense? So in the sense that the above line you quoted, while being valid, may be her lying to herself. lol. I think.
     
  6. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    This suggests that the afterlife is no different from life, in terms of denial and social expectations. But is it really the same?
     
  7. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    In my world. Kind of. Yes actually.

    In my world when people die. They are brought to a spirit plane. The premise of the plane, is that as a person soul decays and fades into nothing. They have time to say those final things they may not have had the chance to in life. To make amends to dead realitives they have caught up too. Eventually nothingness consumes all but before then, before that final death. The afterlife is like a pause button, giving people a chance to express themselves one final time.

    When I say it like that. Her failing to express herself due to the expectation she pidgeon held herself with can almost be taken as a character flaw, can't it? lol
     
  8. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Yeah, I mean, this has to be obvious or at least present to the attentive reader. Otherwise people will assign faults to the angel, maybe they'll even take it as a challenge to see how shallow her compassion is, as ChickenFreak warned about the perceived lack of empathy. It's important not to leave impressions open with this kind of character.
     
  9. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Funny enough, not something I should have to worry about. She starts out dead in my work. lol. I just over think things. A LOT!!!! lol. So she as a character isn't going to have a story unless I decide to write about her backstory. lol. Which in case you and Chicken make a good point. Then again, if I am in her POV it probably is not to hard to point out how her internal monologue clashes with her external opinion. lol. If that makes sense?
     
  10. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Is her self-talk clashing with her statements?
     
  11. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Sort of. As mentioned in my reply to ChickenFreak. The premise, I think. Is that she has sort of realized she is someone people look up to. So she as such acts in a manner she believes is correct. Which means some of her niceness might be a projection, not to say she is fake, rather that her extremeness might be more her taking her natural self to an extreme while trying to fit the role she thinks people see her in.

    If that makes sense?

    Granted this is me thinking off the top of my head in response to what is being said. So call bullshit if you smell bullshit. lol
     
  12. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    I don't call bullshit about stuff like that, it's your story -- do whatever :) So does she resent a little the "responsibility" of being the hero? I was thinking more like if she rejects negative emotions because they serve no useful purpose, how is she extending that? She's not being a showoff, is she? What's not clear to me is whether she does hate so-and-so, or does think the universe ripped her off even if she's not going to curse it, now that you've mentioned a clash between self-talk and statements. Getting back to the OP, there seems to be at least some people like this out there. The big question, to me, now, is what your angle is going to be about them. That might not be something you want to share in advance, just for retaining it for your own work, as I'm sure you already know. But yeah, I like the character more now.
     
  13. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Actually I don't know. lol I never much thought about it because well she is dead. lol. My core story is about her daughter. I been thinking about this a lot lately, because the daughter who originally did not even know her mothers name well finds that out, and starts to research who her mother is. Which has brought a need for that plot to surface.

    So I am very much thinking aloud.

    Funny thing is. It is hard for me to mentally see the line. Now that I say the clash between herself, it seems easy to say she does hate the bad guy, and just pretends not too, but that doesn't seem purely valid. I don't think she is really holding back all that much. So I think her natural idealogy is sort of in that direction but that it is just her own views of social pressure that push it to the extremes. Meaning, I think when you take out the liars in her feelings, her feelings are probably much more like.

    "I hate him, but I hate myself more for letting him taint me with hate!"

    In the sense that she is disappointed with herself for not being the perfect person she tries to play herself off as being. Which, is kind of funny. I keep finding small flaws in her character. I like it. :D lol.
     
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  14. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    So she sees her minor emotional imperfection as worse than his murdering countless people?

    I think she has a lot of work to do on herself in the afterlife. :)
     
  15. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    I see her quote as being similar to the line of thinking of the great pacifists.
     
  16. GuardianWynn
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    Thinking about it. I don't think it is that she values her own emotions more than the lives of countless people. Rather herself is all she can truly control. Thus it is a pain to think she doesn't have the thing that she thought made her unique and special. If that makes sense? But yes, The point of the afterlife is for people to find resolution with themselves. It is like if a loved one is dying and you wish you could just press pause on time and gush with them That is what my afterlife is. lol
     
  17. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    She sounds a bit naive to be honest. A mugger doesn't just rob because he's desperate. He could be a lazy, opportunistic prick that preys on other people to get what he wants. I once chased someone who stole a phone off a guy for the thrill of it. She doesn't sound accepting, just docile and meek.

    My character has similar traits, btw. But she struggles with it, is incredibly self-destructive and self-loathing, and ultimately it destroys her. Nothing good comes from trying to be pure at the expense of your own happiness or well-being, and you don't do anyone else favors with it, either. In the end, purity is a character flaw.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  18. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    This is brilliantly portrayed in the film The Future, where the main male character can't face the breakup with the main female character. So he tries to stop time because he can't face the moment of losing her forever. He stops time, literally, in his own world, and wallows in it before he feels safe enough to continue, accepting the moment he will lose her forever. But then when he starts time up again, he realizes that only he was stopped in time and everyone else is months later, and she's moved on, moved out and is with someone else. It's a kickass sequence. But I digress.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
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  19. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well, she is not as developed as my other version of this. I wasn't trying to imply that she thinks all muggers are hungry, but that she would not view someone, even someone that directly attacked her, as an enemy, at least not from that moment alone.

    Normally, I would say why she feels or acts this way but I am not sure. I haven't fully developed her backstory. But just from the idea this thread has given me. It has made me realize I think one thing.

    Which is. I think she was likely from high society, probably never suffered through that many problems, and to boot was extremely talented. I think in the midst of this, she developed the idealogy that humbles is well a good trait, and to counteract what was an enviroment that tried to breed arrogance into her. She resisted and pushed herself to the other extreme by accident.

    If that makes sense? Like I said. Off top of my head. Feel free to call bullshit if you smell it. :D lol
     
  20. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    I think that not admitting that there is evil, ergo a reason to have enemies, is naive, not hopeful or positive.

    I know someone similar the the second part of your post, and while kind and sharing and shocked by violence or people being mean, she still has the ability to hate and get angry and not feel guilty about it. She's just disappointed that she needs to because some people are bad.
     
  21. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    It isn't that she is refusing to adknowledge it. Rather she things using the terms is well, not helpful. Also, she is allowed to be naive? I never said she wasn't, or did I?

    Then again. I opened the post titled "Too Pure?" For a reason. It is a question. Which is. Do you think this character, as you understand her, is displaying this one trait in such extremes that it makes her unlikable?
     
  22. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    Which terms do you mean? Evil?

    Ignoring evil, turning away from it because it's ugly to look at it and you just want to look at what's pretty, allows evil to thrive. That's not something that makes me like a person.
     
  23. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well, not that she ignores evil. Or turns away from it. I mean, I did say if a starving man tried to kill her she would offer him food. lol.

    I think her views are very Humanistic as defined by psychology. Side note she likes flowers and using them in anologies.

    "It isn't that I fail to see the evils of the world. I just think it is an incorrect term. A flower may not bloom without proper light, and that flower may not look at beautiful, but it is not evil for failing to bloom. It seems rude to blame the flower for not getting enough sun light. I do not see the world as good and evil but as those who have bloomed, and those who have yet to bloom."

    Does that make sense? While not exactly quoting humanistic psychology. i think the above passage is pretty damn close to there idealogy.
     
  24. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    But this is all about her ignoring people who try to harm HER. What about people who try to harm other people?

    If a starving man attacked a child, would she just stand and watch, calmly, refusing to say that the man is committing a wrong, refusing to defend the child, refusing to do anything? If the child somehow escapes from the man and is angry at the man, would she scold the child for his anger, while still refusing to criticize the man? If the child is killed and the child's mother wails and grieves, would she scold the mother?
     
  25. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Oh course not. She would not stand and watch a child be injured. One of the notable things I said about her is that she is not a push over. She will defend herself and others.

    Except she wouldn't view him as evil, but in need of help.

    She would kill if she had too. Or at least I believe she would. She hasn't exactly been in that situation. More likely, in most situation she would be able to hold the man down and would call the authorities if she believed she could not help the man.

    And of course she wouldn't scold the mother. She is holding herself to high standards. Not the world.
     

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