1. Thanshin
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    Thanshin Active Member

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    Wild ramblings about a plot

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Thanshin, Sep 8, 2010.

    Ok, the plot is "man fights the fabric of reality, the way things happen".

    So I suppose it's an "ascension" kind of plot.

    Does it mean the man's victory is to finally reach enough understanding to see the futility of his actions and leave reality alone? That's not the story I want to tell.

    Hmm, let's reimagine that as "man vs god". So... Should I personify Reality? Could I antagonize the man with a non-responsive foe. It seems ok, there has to be thousands of stories about man versus an unresponsive god.

    But, I think it's pretty much required to then not overcome the god.

    So it's "man vs unresponsive god that eventually loses, but doesn't care becaues it's not actually sentient."


    Hmmm, does it mean Reality doesn't really lose, as it doesn't really care? What is what remains constant when reality is changed under it? Facts? History?

    If ∫all is reality, what's ∫reality?


    Well, at least I've got a nice title out of all this crap.
     
  2. Elgaisma
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    Elgaisma Contributing Member Contributor

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    one question will he be doing it wearing a tabard, tunic, gambeson or stockings and suspenders:)
     
  3. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    If you don't want to tell the story of the man accepting reality, you would rather tell about a man continuing to fight reality, then can it be said that your hero is striving to be crazy? And that, if he somehow defeats reality and becomes capable of living in an unreal world, then he truly becomes insane and lives happily for the rest of his life in an institution?

    How would you define a victory over reality?
     
  4. Mallory
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    Mallory Mallegory. Contributor

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    I know this sounds super cliche (cringe), but...I'd recommend that you just write what you want, and don't worry about the "A vs. B" plot type thingy. :)
     
  5. Aeschylus
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    Aeschylus Contributing Member

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    Think about the message your story would tell. If man fights to overcome god and fails, you're basically sending the message that man is insignificant and futile and must accept the authority of something behind himself. I personally find that depressing, and I know many theists who would agree despite their belief in god.

    Likewise, if one man fights reality, then it could be an interesting story--why is he fighting reality? Is he deranged, or simply enlightened? Has reality been altered and he must restore it? Is their reality screwed up? That's interesting. But if it's set in our reality, you need to be more specific--what about reality is man trying to alter? Why is he rejecting the world he lives in? You need to be careful to give him a real motive, otherwise you're saying that reality is inadequate and that we should refuse to accept the real world.

    It's your story. But I personally don't like stories that reflect man as hopeless and futile. That's a terrible outlook on life. If he fails because he does something wrong, it's tragic; if he fails because man is (according to you) inherently flawed, it's defeatist and nihilistic.
     
  6. Thanshin
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    Thanshin Active Member

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    A truly insightful post. In the fantasy world where I do write such a story, you'll be the character who asks the protagonist how does he imagine a victory over reality. The one who asks him if he's striving to be crazy.

    I agree. Defeat doesn't look like an interesting ending. After all, it's easy to imagine losing a fight against reality. It's much harder to imagine a victory.

    Neither. Or rather, both. He's in love.

    I think I'll have to refresh my ancient greek legends for this one.

    Nope, that would remove the decision from him. He'd just be a "hero saviour of mankind".

    I want him to fight reality despite reason and logic.

    I'm not completely sure about the precise piece of reality. He's trying to alter determinism, but I don't want to make it a non acceptance of destiny.

    I have no problem with the topic of the adecuacy of reality and whether we should accept it. I would find it interesting to delve into it.

    I completely agree. I don't like nor would tell stories about inevitability.
     
  7. Aeschylus
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    Aeschylus Contributing Member

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    Well, if he's fighting determinism then that's admirable; I hate the idea of fate and destiny, the idea that future is written. But if he fails, it shouldn't be because he's been predetermined to fail, because that undermines the entire purpose of his quest--right? If he fails, does that mean that you accept determinism?? Think about it.

    It is a fascinating topic, you're right. But it depends on how it's interpreted, because it can be seen in many different ways.
     
  8. Thanshin
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    Thanshin Active Member

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    My problem now is the "How".

    If what he wants to avoid/correct has already happened, he's not fighting determinism but the past, which I'm not really interested on.

    However, if what he wants to avoid/correct happens in the future, deciding to fight it means accepting determinism. He'd have to first believe that something will happen to decide he is going to do something about it.

    So, I need something that will happen but not because of a deterministic "there's just one possible path", but because all paths lead to the same result.

    I need a metaphoric meteorite on route to the Earth. Something that will kill someone whatever happens. Something that could only be stopped if basic rules of reality itself are broken or changed.
     
  9. Elgaisma
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    Elgaisma Contributing Member Contributor

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    My first post was only semi meant as a joke I find dressing my character and designing his or her character helps progress my worlds and ideas. I had a whole plan for the monarchy and how they worked based on their clothing.

    Seriously if you know his character you will know if it will be a rock in space or opening a pneumonic plague pit. Because that is what your character is capable of fighting/changing/altering -
     
  10. art
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    art Contributing Member Contributor

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    Someone who battles against injustice does so because the injustice exists. If he fought against an injustice that he thought didn't exist we might regard him as nuts.

    Your fellow, frankly, must accept determinism in order for there to be an adversary. He is saying: You exist but I find you unaccaptable. I will fight you so that you do not apply, in my case at least.

    If you're not happy with that, it's not unreasonable to assume that certain things will happen without accepting determinism: you perhaps don't need to engage in frustrating search for an event that is inevitable but not inevitable.
     
  11. Thanshin
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    Thanshin Active Member

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    You're right.

    So there is a predetermined future that my character wants to avoid and that is an inevitable consequence of the present situation. The character just had to make it so it stops being inevitable (optimally in a way that still leaves it at "very probable") and then stop the situation.


    I can work with that. Thanks.
     
  12. Thanshin
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    Thanshin Active Member

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    My character is, essentially, a Nobilis noble. Determining what he is capable of is not trivial. That is, indeed, what I must find now.

    Nobilis is a contemporary fantasy role-playing game created by Jenna K. Moran, writing under the name R. Sean Borgstrom. The player characters are "Sovereign Powers" called the Nobilis; each Noble is the personification of an abstract concept or class of things such as Time, Death, cars, or communication.
     
  13. Elgaisma
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    Elgaisma Contributing Member Contributor

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    hmm so if he subverts the determinism will he face consequences for it?

    I remember an interesting TV movie - I think Mark Harmon was the lead role but not sure it was years ago they had a superbug type thing on board an airplane. US government wants to destroy the planes and its passengers, he saves the day they all land safely. What they didn't know was the gestation period was several months they all start coughing and that is where it ends. Sorry can't be clearer though the premise and story was better than the movie.:)
     
  14. Thanshin
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    Thanshin Active Member

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    Well, there'd certainly be several other nobles that wouldn't find it funny. It all hinges on how exactly he breaks the inevitability. If he allies with others who can, he'd need a stronger reason than "I don't want her to die".

    It could be an ending twist. The unforseen consequences of the protagonist's twisting of the fundations of reality.
     
  15. Elgaisma
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    Elgaisma Contributing Member Contributor

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    I only briefly read the Wiki article but I gather it is based on a karma idea so if he goes against Godlike/Universal order of things he would face karma for what he has done?

    Other alternative is that actually there are two predetermined paths it is something in my religion, Adam and Eve were told not to eat the fruit and to procreate. But they couldn't procreate without eating the fruit, so they had to break one commandment in order to keep the other one. Maybe one of th other nobles has started down a path that is different from his determined path and she is needed to bring everything back into balance?
     
  16. Thanshin
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    Thanshin Active Member

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    Well in the game itself (I'm just taking a little part), he'd face angels (not exactly the christian ones) and about every other noble, as he'd be becoming an excrucian, an outsider.

    But I want his quest to be about breaking the order, not restoring it.

    However this does give me an idea about how he could present the plan to gain allies as just an alternative path, equally wrong thus equally right.
     

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