Suicide is painful

When it comes to this sort of thing, I look at Stephen Hawking as reason to go on living, in spite of one's circumstances. Many people who commit suicide didn't have it anywhere near as bad those who choose to go on living, even through far worse circumstances, so the act is fundamentally selfish.

There's this Christian guy who was born without arms and legs who contemplated suicide many times, but he found something to live for when he realized that he could inspire others to embrace life, no matter how bad it hurts at times.

In his ministry, he found his purpose - giving hope to other hurting people and helping them be grateful for what they have.

A friend of mine committed suicide about six years ago, and I've often found myself angry that he never told anyone what he was going through; he seemed like the happiest, most fulfilled person while he was here, but darkness consumed him in secret and, for whatever reason, he wasn't able to express his pain.

If I could go back in time, I would bug him until he opened up - I know now that a happy disposition can be a mask, and I'm suspicious of anyone who seems to have an abundance of joy now. I love my friend and miss him; I just wish that he reached out when he could have.

@ThunderAngel
Sometimes, bugging people until they reach out doesn’t do anything to prevent suicide.

And I’ll reject that suicide is totally selfish. Some people truly believe they are doing it for the benefit of those around them. That’s what my father believed when he did it. He was so full of despair and self-loathing that he couldn’t imagine inflicting himself on his loved ones any longer.

And saying people “didn’t have it nearly as bad” is a gross minimalization. Suffering is relative. One person’s suffering does not diminish that of another.

Spencer1990, even if one did believe they were doing it to benefit their loved ones, it's still an act made without consideration to the actual devastation it will reap.

My friend made such an excuse to his wife in the note he left her, but it still devastated her to the point of contemplating suicide herself, which would have left their distraught children without their mother as well.

She's married to another man now, but the trauma is still fresh to her and she breaks down from time to time because of it; my friend was selfish, and I can't excuse what he did, no matter how much pain he was in, and no matter how much I love him. He caused irreparable damage that will stay with us the rest of our lives when he could have chosen to trust us with his pain and seek help.

And, I think I have a right to say this because I went through several years as a teenager craving death, fantasizing about it and flirting with it through cutting. The thing that ultimately kept me from finalizing my desire to die was what it would do to my parents and siblings. I realized as a teenager that I had no right to inflict that kind of pain just to escape my own, and I began reaching out to get help.

In the process of getting help, i began learning of people who suffered far worse things than I ever had, like Stephen Hawking; knowing that he chose to live in spite of losing virtually every bit of control over his body really drove home the point of how selfish I was to even consider suicide over my own afflictions which were - in comparison to Hawking's - rather light.

When you said that one person's suffering doesn't diminish that of another, in my case it actually did. It helped me tremendously to know that people who suffered far worse things than I have chose life rather than death, even when they would have preferred the latter. It gave me extraordinary hope and comfort to know that people can pass through their dark nights of the soul without it destroying them, and I clung desperately to that little bit of light until it got me through my own dark night.

One person choosing to go on with life through objectively worse circumstances for the sake of their loved ones is enough inspiration for those in objectively better circumstances to do the same. I don't criticize suicidal people because I myself was one. But, I have a right to say that the act is fundamentally selfish because I had to come to terms with my own selfishness during the process of getting help; my therapist said "Suicide is like setting off a bomb in the presence of one's family because the sufferer wants out of life; loved ones are left emotionally dismembered and disfigured for the rest of their lives. There is always a better way than taking your own life, and you chose that way. Sadly, many do not, and they cast their loved ones into hell just so they can escape to heaven; there's never an excuse that can justify that!"

It was a bitter truth, but I needed to hear it.

As someone who isn't facing immediate grave danger or torture, has never been physically enslaved, nor kidnapped and sold to a satanist or pedophile I would press myself to handle all situations without contemplating suicide. However, if I'm ever faced with any of the above...I don't know.

It seems to me we just can't know what people are going through when they make this decision and so I won't judge anyone. I knew a left handed artist who took his own life after a stroke deprived him of the use of his left side. He felt that life wasn't worth living if he couldn't paint. My immediate reaction was to say "give yourself time to recover", and even, rather crassly "maybe you could train the right hand", but in truth I knew nothing of how much his sense of himself and his art were intertwined, or the family dynamics and the history of depression that made these ideas impossible for him to even think about.

If somebody genuinely feels that their life is not worth living for whatever reason, then they should be supported in my opinion. Before anybody asks, yes I would still say this if somebody I knew wanted to die. I would rather know that somebody died peacefully and on their own terms than lived a miserable, tortured existence. Expecting somebody to live a life of suffering because you don't want to feel sad is selfish.

mashers, life is not meaningless, and the ones who think it is has lied to themselves and should be made aware of it.

If we didn't live in a nihilistic culture people would have stronger constitutions to get them through their dark times; hopelessness is a disease of the mind, not a state of reality, and it's not incurable.

"Expecting somebody to live a life of suffering because you don't want to feel sad is selfish."

Yes, I'll confess that it is selfish, but it's a natural kind of selfishness which is perfectly reasonable; suicidal tendencies are not natural because it means that one has lost their biological sense of self-preservation and have, essentially, gone insane. It isn't natural to seek to die; it means that something has gone terribly wrong in the mind of an individual, and there are ways to help them come back from that precipice.

I would never tell a loved one to go ahead and end their life because I would basically be confirming their self-delusion of worthlessness; no one is worthless, and they should never be made to feel that they are.

That is a matter of opinion. Life has different meanings to different people. And for some, it has no meaning. And I don't believe anybody should impose their idea of the meaning of life on others.

That depends on the individual circumstances. Somebody with an incurable illness which causes suffering is not curable, and their hopelessness may stem from that. Who are we to require that that person suffers for our benefit?

Actually it doesn't. Anyone who has tried to kill themselves will know that at the point you make the attempt, your mind is wrestling with your body. Your mind does not want to live, but your body will resist every effort you make to compel yourself to carry out the act that will cause you to die. The biological imperative to live is still there. Of course there are cases where this is not so, but you can't assume that somebody has lost their "biological sense of self-preservation".

Again, I don't agree with this. It is natural to avoid suffering. Not all suffering is avoidable. And in those cases, the desire to die is perfectly rational and understandable.

Neither would I. Of course, I wouldn't do anything so crass. You're assuming that's what I meant when I said they should be supported. Support in my opinion should take the form of counselling the person in whatever the issue is that is making them feel they need to die, and if after that they are still of the same mind that they want to die, then a humane method should be provided. Like assisted suicide clinics in some countries. We live in a society where we make the decision to euthanise animals to spare their suffering, but we don't allow humans to make the same choice for themselves. It is obscene and immoral.

You're assuming the message is "it doesn't matter if you die, go ahead" rather than "I know how much you are suffering, and as much as it will hurt me to let you go, I will be glad that you are no longer suffering".

My stance on this is rather mixed. On the one hand, I have been suicidal many times, and tried to take my life in the past (my final attempt was in 2010). I have also been in a situation where I thought I would die at the hands of another (domestic violence). I watched my father suffer for years with leukaemia, and chronic depression. I believe he put himself through that for us, not for himself, as such. I think if I could go back in time, we may all have preferred it if he could've chosen to end his own suffering. When he responded negatively to a course of treatment (he was coughing up blood), it was my mum who told the doctors about it, not him. He wasn't happy with her decision on that. For me at least, watching my father suffer like that, and having suffered myself, I do understand why people want to die, and I don't judge them for it. It is very personal. I don't believe that most people who attempt suicide do it impulsively. I think it is something that they wrestle with for a long time within themselves, and it is far from easy to contemplate. If you cannot see the wood for the trees, how can you say that person is selfish? They are lost. Lost within themselves, lost within their depression, their illness, their situation. Some people can reach out when they are like that. Others can't. Some people can not be reached.

I don't think you're correct on this. No one in their right mind would criticize a police officer for tackling a person before they jumped off a bridge; that is, essentially, imposing ideals through the strongest measure possible - with physical force, and many are grateful later for such an imposition.

We are no one to require any such thing. But, we would be bereft of our humanity not to try and convince the person that they still have something to live for. There are always people who suffer worse things and manage to find hope and a reason to live; even when what they're suffering from is killing them. The suicidal person should be made aware of that and to be kindly challenged to do the same. What they do beyond that point is on them, and you bear no more responsibility since you tried to help them make another decision. Some people choose to live life as fully as possible before a terminal illness takes them out, and some accomplish great things before they go; inspire them to do better.

I'm not speaking of the body's reaction, I'm speaking of the mind. A mind that has determined to end one's existence has reached the point of insanity. You are sane if you listen to the biological imperative to live, you are not if you don't.

The "Desire" is understandable and rational, yes; but the "Act" is far from rational because you have to fight to suppress everything that makes you rational to go through with it.

We do that to animals because we believe that they don't know what we intend to do to them. If they did know, they might resist and most of us wouldn't have the heart to force them to go through with it.

When it comes to humans, a terminally ill patient shouldn't be forced to do something they don't want to do; but they should be made aware that they can choose to spend their remaining time doing something to better the world like those in similar circumstances who decided to go out shining rather than snuffing out their own lights. As long as breath remains, so does potential, and all some people need is for someone to show them their potential to give them the greatest passion for life that they ever had. It's always worth the shot.

People jump from bridges as a last resort, because they are desperate and can't see any other way out. If we had a system where people could seek counselling with a view to assisted suicide, then nobody would resort to an impulsive and brutal act like jumping. People who would have been grateful for somebody stopping them jumping would be the same people who would come to the end of the counselling and decide not to go ahead with the assisted suicide; these same people might have jumped if nobody was there to stop them. Likewise, somebody who got to the end of the counselling and decided they still wanted to die would not thank the person who stopped them carrying out their wish. They would just try again another time.

My point is that people should be given a supportive forum to talk openly about their wish to die, and a humane method to do it. That way people can make a choice in a rational way rather than making one out of desperation.

Which is why I said counselling should be provided first. I'm not suggesting we simply hand out barbiturates to anyone who asks for them.

This is not a helpful thing to tell somebody who is suicidal.

I disagree. There is only so much suffering a person can endure, and when the cost of life outweighs the benefit, it is rational to seek to end it. That is just my opinion of course, and I don't need you to agree with me

Yes, and therein lies the massive double standard. We know very well that a non-human animal would very likely resist our efforts to euthanise them if they knew what we were doing, but we do it anyway because we think we know best. Yet a human, who is self-conscious and able to communicate his/her wishes is denied the right to choose. We make the decision on behalf of an animal that cannot communicate, and ignore the wishes of one that can.

Except, apparently, living with unbearable suffering.

Terminally ill people already know that. But not everybody is able to be a "shining example". And I would suggest that choosing to die with dignity is a shining example.