Lithium Ion batteries (rechargeable) and safety

By Xoic · Oct 27, 2023 · 1.7K · 20

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Recently I was looking into getting an eBike and ran across the fact that many of them are known to suddenly burst violently into flames, either while charging, while riding, or just while sitting somewhere. And not only that, but the flames can't be put out. I posted some info about it on the message board a while back, but I've been looking into it more and I've found some better info now. I mentioned on the Science thread that I have a few flashlights with rechargeable lithium-ion batteries and I'd hate for one of them to suddenly turn into a little thermite torch in my pocket. Well, here's some video of exactly that happening (plus a few more related incidents):

It took me a ridiculously long time to find good reliable info about safety, but what I've learned is that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, which are a type of lithium ion (notice one has an R in it—iRon, and one doesn't)—are inherently much safer. Apparently they don't burst into flames.

Previous to learning this the only info I could come up with is to "look for batteries made by reputable companies," which apparently means non-Chinese/non-Asian companies, look for a UL label, and make sure your batteries have 'protection' (which means there's a little chip inside it that shuts it down if it starts to overcharge or overheat). I originally had batteries that look like they were practically home-made in China, and don't say anything about protection. I've never used them, and am a bit worried about them just sitting in the box in my house. I need to look into how to dispose of them. I believe you're supposed to call your waste disposal company and ask if there's a hazardous waste disposal facility near you they can be taken to. If it isn't on the bus line we got trouble, or maybe they'll make a house call?

Anyway, I've been using some protected batteries and no incidents so far, but I see Amazon also carries Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for about the same price. I'll definitely be getting some of those. They feel like the safest alternative to me. Now to start the search to see if any eBikes use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries...

Here's a video on safety:

I might get one of those fireproof boxes or bags to charge and store batteries in.
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Ah crap...

Just ran across this:

Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery
As lead-acid battery usage continued to decline, the second-generation Lithium Iron Phosphate battery took its place. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries were relatively affordable, non-toxic, and had excellent thermal stability (how well the battery resists overheating while still maintaining its important characteristics).

Thanks to the large amounts of iron available on the Earth, manufacturers were able to produce a large quantity of these batteries for various uses in the market. Unfortunately, like lead-acid batteries, these Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries were also not great at performing in low temperatures and so battery producers continued to look for new and better materials to build their batteries.
source

This is extremely frustrating to try to research.

Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
More frustration

Yes, I can find Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries on Amazon, but not in the size/voltage I need. These are the closest I've found:

They're the right size, which is 18650, but the wrong voltage (3.3 rather than 3.7), and they look totally bootlegged. No customer comments on Amazon, which is weird and concerning. LFP apparently means LiFePO, which is short for Lithium Iron Phosphate. Li must mean Lithium, and Fe means Iron (Ferrous). When you find genuine lithium iron phosphate batteries it usually says LiFePO4.

Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
1. Those things look like something from the backpack of the mandatory demolition guy of every heist or commando squad.
  
  Bruce Johnson, Oct 28, 2023
  
  Xoic likes this.
Interesting info I just want to record where I can always find it—

18650 (the battery size) means this:

18mm diameter
65mm height
and the 0 refers to its cylindrical shape

Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
These seem to be the real deal:

Battery 18650 3.7V 2000mah LiFePo4 Rechargeable High Performance Battery

Not shipped by Amazon though, no customer comments, no stars, and it's shipped by a company in Hong Kong that's apparently only sold 4 items so far through Amazon? Man, this is some scary shit! I bit the bullet and went ahead and ordered though, they seem to be what I'm looking for. It's a little hard to tell, considering all the bizarre mistakes and weird wording in the listing. This is as bad as or worse than AI writing.
Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
Yeah, Li-Ion and Li-Po batteries are scary. I remember the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 fiasco years ago when the phone would just randomly explode and catch fire.

But these batteries are safe... most of the time. I mean, the vast majority of consumer-grade devices runs on them. Phones, laptops, drones, battery banks, you name it... and it probably has a Li-Ion chemistry.

If you buy high quality cells and use them properly, they 99% will be fine. These battery types usually explode when they're bad quality or when people abuse them.

Mistakes happen. In the video you linked where a phone caught fire in the car's windshield, you could see it was an iPhone. I wouldn't expect iPhones to do that. But we don't know if the iPhone had its battery replaced with a low-quality third-party one. Official iPhone batteries have exploded in the past though. It's just really, really rare.

LiFePO4 batteries are still the safest because you have to abuse them like hell before they go off. But that's a true LiFePO4. You have no way to know if what you bought is actually as advertised. It could be Li-Ion in disguise as LifePO4. I wouldn't trust anything from such a lowly rated seller. A LiFePO4 battery from an unknown seller is significantly more dangerous than a Li-Ion battery from a reputable manufacturer like Panasonic.

Return it. You still have time to press the button. You can find those cells from a good source.

ps102, Oct 27, 2023
Those are the ONLY batteries in the right size and voltage I've been able to find.

The things you've said are the same things I see over and over, and nothing more specific. The iPhone might have caught fire because it was sitting in the hot sun on the dashboard, or maybe it got banged around. Impact is one of the causes. I don't think I've seen any batteries so far that aren't Asian. But I've only looked on Amazon, maybe that's the problem? I'm so burned out from all the endless research and almost no results. And then you hear "Some sellers are claiming they're Lifepo but they aren't, and it's usually the Chinese ones, only sometimes it's not, you never can tell really." That's the real problem. It seems to be a totally unregulated business, and all you get are these vague statements and nothing concrete. And I get the feeling no matter what the company name, all the batteries are really made in China.

Of course, in the end, that's life isn't it? Despite what we've been told or think we know, ultimately you just have to take the chance and you never really know for sure. Our world is being filled up with these little bombs, and no matter how carefully you research and try, people around you are carrying the bad ones, or somebody in your building has an eScooter on a charger right now that's starting to smoke.

Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
I think I might have found a source, of good information and also where I can buy from. Here:

Lithium Werks 18650 1100mAh 30A LiFePO4 Battery

These batteries are Chinese, but are UL listed. The whole site seems reputable, and actually gives useful information rather than endless random information that doesn't help (as I've had to wade through on other sites). They even recommend a compatible charger. Another random tidbit of info I just managed to extract from an otherwise useless and endless page of strings of numbers and bad English is that if you use LiFePo4 batteries you need a charger specifically designed for them.

Ah god! My head is so overfilled with all this it feels like it's overheating and is about to explode and start shooting unquenchable fire out my ears. But my quest might finally be at an end. At least for flashlight batteries.
Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
It's too late to cancel the other batteries, they're already on the slow boat from Hong Kong and will be here in about a month. I'll add them to the other little battery bombs I've got and see about finding a disposal facility.

Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
"Those are the ONLY batteries in the right size and voltage I've been able to find"

The chemistry of the battery tends to determine its output voltage. Alkaline is 1.5v, for example, and NiMh 1.2v. Li-ion is 3.7, and so on...

LiFeP04 is probably just 3.3v by nature. I suspect you can't really find 3.7v ones. The new cell you linked is also 3.3v

So, that's probably why you weren't able to find any. And that makes those cells you bought even more suspicious.

By the way, I probably wouldn't use a Li-Ion charger with LiFEP04 batteries. Different chemistries have different charging techniques. Voltage isn't everything, although it is important.

That said, as long as you charge them properly, and as long as its the right cell size (18650), then you can use 3.3v cells in your flashlight. Li-Ion batteries aren't constantly 3.7v. That's just the maximum voltage they can reach. It drops to about 2.5v as they discharge. Anything below that and they start to die (but the battery controllers prevent that).

How do you charge your current flashlight batteries?

I'm sorry for repeating info later. It seems I stressed you out. Hopefully this helps a little better.

ps102, Oct 27, 2023
The charger I've been using automatically detects what kind of batteries are in it and adjusts everything, I believe including if it needs a trickle charge for a while (because the battery was too low). But I ordered the LiFePo4 charger to go with the new batteries.

Every influx of info that raises new doubts causes stress. I usually don't stress much at all (stoicism, don't ya know), but this has been so much endless research for so long, with so little actual useful information, and I've been immersed in this insane world of suddenly exploding batteries and fires that can't be put out... after a while it starts to erode your secure worldview.

Now that I believe I've found some good LiFePo4 batteries and the right charger I'm re-securing my worldview. Expect to have it done in a day or two.

Xoic, Oct 27, 2023
"But I ordered the LiFePo4 charger to go with the new batteries."

Ah, then you should be good. I worried that your flashlight had its own charging circuit.

"I've been immersed in this insane world of suddenly exploding batteries and fires that can't be put out... after a while it starts to erode your secure worldview."

You would be fine either way, honestly. Companies that sell you batteries have no interest in setting your house on fire because they'll get lawsuits otherwise. The really, really bad kind you don't want.

My parents have owned mobile phones for years. When I go to their basement(s), I find all kinds of Lithium batteries. Some are dead and swollen, while some are fine. But none the less, nothing has caught fire. And we're talking about a lot of batteries. Like, 20 years' worth.

I had a battery go balloon on me two years ago. It was my old phone. I noticed that its back popped off and the battery was swollen like a balloon. I couldn't recycle it (the UK sucks when it comes to that) so I buried it in cat litter to deprive it of oxygen. I still have it and no fire yet.

All that is to say, you'll be fine. But LiFeP04 offer really nice extra security. I'm not sure why they don't use those in consumer devices.

Just don't be like my parents and throw out your old Lithium batteries, no matter the chemistry.

ps102, Oct 27, 2023
Moving ahead now—Begin eBike research

Ok, my flashlight battery conundrum is settled and done, just waiting for the batteries and charger to come in. And I've increased my knowledge of all this eBattery stuff considerably—now I almost know enough to qualify as a level 2 idiot!

Next stage—looking into whether I can get an eBike with LiFePO4 batteries, or convert one. Here's a nice page that seems like a good starting point to launch my research from:

Can you Use LiFePO4 for Ebike?

If you just read the text parts it's incredibly monotonous and repetitive. Encouraging though. In the first video he builds his own eBike battery from LiFePO4 cells, and it looks like something I could do (with another little research curve attached, especially concerning soldering and electrical connectors). I actually have some experience doing hard soldering, aka silver solder or brazing. It's different though—it's done with a torch. I suspect the soft soldering used for electrical connectors doesn't require a special acid bath (called Pickling) for the parts afterwards. Plus regular lead solder (I think that's what it is?) is much cheaper than silver.

All of this is making me feel a lot more familiar with the technology. Hopefully I don't need to build my own battery, but I feel like if it's necessary I can now. That really didn't look very difficult, though it's not the best looking battery.

And now I see why it was so hard to find those 18650 cells in LiFePO4—apparently those are very rare. Nice to know. Maybe finding them in other sizes won't be so difficult.
Xoic, Oct 29, 2023
I also think I understand that little post above saying that Lithium Iron Phosphate was an early eBattery technology and has been left behind for Lithium Ion—what we're seeing now is a new generation of higher-tech Lithium Iron Phosphate. I'll give that another Good to Know.

Xoic, Oct 29, 2023
Portable Power Station

I'm considering getting one of these:

It's basically a power storage bank, so if the power goes out you can run a few appliances, maybe a lamp, a fan, your computer, or whatever. You can charge it up using household current, solar power, or put it in your car and plug it into the cigarette lighter.

Here's the Amazon listing:

EF ECOFLOW Portable Power Station RIVER 2 Pro, 768Wh LiFePO4 Battery

I love that it uses LiFePo4, I wouldn't consider it otherwise. If you click to see the videos for it, the guy who did the short video above did a much longer one that gives a lot of info.
Xoic, Oct 29, 2023
Now I see they have a bigger, more powerful one called the EcoFlow Delta 2. Strong enough to run a refrigerator on.

Xoic, Oct 29, 2023

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Lithium Ion batteries (rechargeable) and safety

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