1. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    “Fantasy” for the more mature audience

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by badgerjelly, Nov 13, 2018.

    I love the creative aspect of writing fantasy and creating whole new worlds, cultures, histories, races, etc.,. What I don’t know is how popular fantasy is with a more adult audience whom wish depth and breadth to their reading experience.

    Are there any authors out there who write nitty-gritty fantasy novels that are not aimed at teenagers? I am talking full-on fantasy here not merely the real world cast in some fantasy tilt - eg. Harry Potter style. I am thinking the creation of a completely original world, with original races in which the themes and topics under inspection within the narrative are anything but twee or frivolous.

    I guess the most obvious example would be Game of Thrones, which I have glanced at but didn’t find the style particularly engaging.

    Are more serously themed fantasy novels becoming a modern trend in the wake of Game of Thrones?

    What is your take on this? Do you find yourself wanting more from fantasy novels in terms of intellectual depth or do you prefer the simplistic framing of good versus evil that is the most popular approach to the genre?
     
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  2. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Iain M Banks's Culture series (I think it began with The Player of Games) is very popular, and also very adult. I'm also a huge fan of Kage Baker's 'Company' series—the one that begins with In The Garden of Iden.

    Banks is often considered a sci-fi author, but his stories are less scientific than some. I see them as 'futuristic fantasy.' Baker's stories are nearly all set in 'the real world' of various time periods, but the fantasy element is strong. However, her trilogy The Anvil of the World, The House of the Stag, and The Bird of the River are pure fantasy and take place in an imaginary world ...and have won awards.

    Of course there is also The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie, which is a huge favourite of mine. His later series are directed more towards the YA reader, but The First Law is definitely for adults.

    For me, I'm entranced by an unexpected idea or unusual treatment. Banks and Baker both have come up with really innovative ideas that form the base of their stories. Abercrombie turns fantasy tropes on their heads, with amusing and thought-provoking results.
     
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  3. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, the Culture series does lean in that direction. It is essentially “sci-fi” though and I was thinking more along the lines of swords and sorcery.

    I was thinking of Bainks but in Middle Earth with multiple unique species and more driven by content and style than purely by a Good versus Evil theme that is so apparent in much of the fantasy I’ve read.

    Banks certainly makes his world part of the greater questions he’s asking about human existence and what/who we are in the larger picture. Use of Weapons is one that really stuck out for me; Player of Games is a brilliant idea too and does a great job of inferring detail and complexity without losing the reader down some endless explication of what the Game is played by the race.

    Even with his non-culture novels a very serious tone is taken when describing psychologically damaged individuals (the one with the cult in Scotland and the one that made him famous on the island ... for some reason I cannot recall the title!)

    I just mean that most fantasy seems to shy away from dealing with serious questions and tends to present them in a facile black and white manner - because a lot of it has tended to target young adults. Sci-fi is taken a lot more seriously because of the “science” point and the exploration of socio-political ideas and potential distopian visions of the future.

    I wish I could find a guy from another forum that went down. He wrote a book called “Things Fall Apart” and it was beyond where I want to go, but he was certainly what I was pushing toward.
     
  4. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I like Schwab's "Darker Shade of Magic" and Lawrence's "Prince of Fools"
     
  5. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    Both of those - especially the former - seem to rely heavily on human history (one London and the other says “Norsemen” and a generic “ice witch”; instantly I’m turned off by this without read a single word of either novel.) Please note I am not saying they are good/bad stories. If you could tell me how the world he creates is distinctive I’d like to hear it. Thanks.

    The only original thing I can think of is with China Mieville’s creations. Even here though, the social landscape is pretty generic as far as poltics goes. The unique races he comes up with didn’t cover up the lack of socio-politcal depth to the world (not that that was his aim I imagine, but it is what I want.)
     
  6. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Seriously themed fantasy has been around since the genre's beginning, A Song of Ice and Fire merely brought it to the attention of non-fantasy readers.

    The Witcher might be up your alley. Sapkowski uses most of the standard fantasy species and the faux medieval European setting, but the stories themselves are biting deconstructions of fairy tales and standard European fantasy. Quite a lot of grit and moral ambiguity, with some deep themes. Tons of realpolitik and economics influencing the plot. I'm sure something is lost in the translation from Polish, but the series is still great.

    Mistborn isn't especially "gritty" per se, but it's definitely written for an adult audience, explores some adult themes, and has unique worldbuilding. Especially in the form of its magic system. It looks like a relatively good vs. evil conflict in the beginning, but it gradually becomes clear murkier forces are at play.

    I haven't read his work, but Glen Cook comes up a lot in discussion of gritty fantasy.

    You could also look back to one of the founders of the genre. Robert E. Howard's Conan stories were definitely written with an adult audience in mind. Quite a bit of grit for the 30s. Things aren't usually clear cut good vs. evil (more along the lines of Conan's self interest and barbarian code of honor vs. everything else), and a number of the stories touch on deep themes (Beyond the Black River is probably the clearest example).
     
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  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser certainly weren't clear black and white. (Come to think of it, I guess that's why the Mouser is "grey".)
     
  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Read Caitlin R Kiernan’s Daughter of Hounds

    Tanith Lee, also.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Maybe Robin Hobb's Farseer series? Not a super-sophisticated writing style, but plenty of moral ambiguity.
     
  10. Azuresun

    Azuresun Senior Member

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    As well as Conan, it's worth checking out Howard's other stuff--Solomon Kane, Bran Mac Morn or King Kull. The latter two are set in the same "timeline" as Conan, taking the setting from primeval Atlantis to the dawn of the modern world, and when you read them all, there's a wonderful sense of the sweep of history and melancholy as great heroes and legends of the past are lost to the relentless march of time. The Solomon Kane stories are great in their own right, swashbuckling adventure in the Elizabethean era, with a Puritan witch-hunter with a mysterious past roaming the world and rooting out evil.

    From the earlier days of the genre, I'd also recommend Michael Moorcock, Jack Vance and Tanith Lee. The former wrote a lot of stuff, but the Elric series was designed to be almost the anti-Conan, with a flawed and damaged protagonist who enlists the dubious aid of an intelligent, soul-eating sword to wander the world and try to find a way to save his decadent and depraved homeland from fading into history. The worldbuilding is amazing, and there's a rather trippy, heady feel to some of the stories and the fantastic imagery that comes out of them.

    Vance's Dying Earth series consists of a collection of short stories, and some novels about the very nasty antihero Cugel. They're set in the distant future where Earth is dying, and only a few thousand people remain amidst the ruins of countless empires of the past. There's a great sense of this unimaginably ancient, decayed world where life and humankind itself are winding down and slowly fading into oblivion, as people embrace decadent nihilism in the face of the end, rebel against their fate, or seek to discover and hoard the secrets of the ancients. And we can't forget:

    "I am Chun the Unavoidable."

    Tanith Lee's Flat Earth series, beginning with Night's Master, has a similar feel--epic fantasy set across hundreds or thousands of years, following interlinked stories across that time. There's a very human touch to the stories, with even legendary characters who will shape the world for ages to come having very sympathetic origins and motivations, and there's a very intense and almost feverish quality to the writing that makes the setting really come alive with just a few sentences.

    The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.....it's hard to recommend these, even though they're some of my favourites. It's a hard sell because the first book puts off a lot of people for understandable reasons--it's very much a Standard Fantasy Premise with a hero from our world summoned to a nice, pleasant fantasy land to join a quest, the "hero" is an unlikable jerk who just wants to be left alone and who refuses to believe in the fantasy, and there's the notorious scene where
    He rapes a woman.
    BUT....from the second book onwards, it really starts to become clear what makes the series distinct. Covenant's reasons for being a jerk are explored and deconstructed, as are the reasons why the world needs someone like this guy to save it, and the consequences of That Scene are relentlessly and unromantically explored. The underlying themes of the series are the destructive power of self-hatred, and the damage we do to ourselves and others when we cut ourselves off from love and affection, with the big battles and world-shaking threats being mostly a sideshow. And it's a compelling and fascinating world too, with genuinely alien nonhuman races, and one that evolves over three different eras as the consequences of the heroes' actions ripple down through history.


    In comics, the 2000AD series Slaine is also worth checking out. The pitch is basically "Celtic Conan" with some SF elements, but there are several storylines that go beyond simple action, and paint a picture of a hero who's as much a societal reformer as a skilled warrior. I'd recommend starting with The Horned God, and then maybe The Book of Invasions if you liked the first one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
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  11. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    People of all ages read books, and Fantasy is a popular genre. Stories don’t have to be grim or dark to appeal to adult readers. You don’t have to make everything morally ambiguous, and kill off all your characters like in Game of Thrones. Just find a story that you want to tell, and craft it for an audience who wants to read it. Coming of age stories will be more popular with young readers, and dark stories will result in parents shielding their kids from them, but those are just a few factors that come into play.

    If you go to a signing for a popular author like Sanderson, Hobb, or Rothfus, you’ll find people of all ages there. Those books aren’t particularly dark. The protagonists of those books are often young, but not always. But the stories are written in such a way as to appeal to a wide audience. And that makes the books more popular.

    Everyone can enjoy Fantasy. Some books cater specifically to a particular age range or niche. That’s fine, but you don’t have to do that if you don’t want to. Just tell a good story. People will enjoy it.
     
  12. Night Herald

    Night Herald The Fool Contributor

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    Besides what's already been mentioned: Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe (part of the Solar Cycle) and The Prince of Nothing trilogy by R. Scott Bakker (part of the Second Apocalypse)

    However you want to classify Book of the New Sun, it has a lot of Fantasy DNA. If features an incredibly alien world, a layered, complicated plot, and plenty of grit and moral ambiguity. It definitely isn't a "simplistic good vs. evil" type story. Simplistic is just about the last adjective I'd reach for; this is a book widely analyzed for deeper meaning.

    The Prince of Nothing is the kind of dark that makes A Song of Ice and Fire seem mild. The hero of the story is an utter monstrosity. This bleak trio of books is bound up in philosophical questions and the mangled carcasses of established tropes. This is grim stuff, definitely nothing simple or straightforward about it.

    I demand more than that from anything I read, in any genre. I'm not sure the Fantast genre is dominated by that kind of thing as much as you seem to think.
     
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  13. Pandaking908

    Pandaking908 Member

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    There are a lot of fantasy books for adults. A lot of them were mentioned here, but I can list a few off the top of my head.

    Name of The Wind

    Malazan Book of the Fallen Series

    The Gentleman Bastard Series

    The First Law Series (Really recommend this one.)

    The Dark Tower Series

    American Gods

    The Wheel of Time

    Worm

    Tigana

    If I forget any, it's either because I'm not sure if it's meant for adults, or I haven't heard about it.
     
  14. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    There are way too many books like this to list, though those are some excellent examples. If you go to a bookstore and find the fantasy shelf, pretty much all of those books will be marketable to adults. Books for young adults and kids are often filed under a different section. Young adult fantasy, middle grade fantasy, etc.
     
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  15. Pandaking908

    Pandaking908 Member

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    That's true. I guess I was trying to just list books that I knew that were for sure adult novels. Some are books that I really enjoy (Like Name of The Wind and The First Law Series.)
     
  16. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    NK Jemisin's Inheritance Trilogy (no relation to Paolini's saga) is about a world where one of the gods has given a human royal family the power to enslave the other gods as weapons against the family's human enemies and/or subjects, and her Broken Earth Trilogy is about a world where cataclysms bring the human race to its knees every few hundred/thousand years, where cities, monuments, and civilizations are measured by how many cataclysms they've survived, and where many people are exploited and abused for their telekinetic control over stone.

    I'm not going to state "NK Jemisin is my personal favorite SFF author" as a matter of personal opinion.

    NK Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy won 3 out of 3 Hugo Awards in 3 consecutive years.

    She is, pure and simply, the greatest novelist of the 21st Century.
     
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  17. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    I’ve read some of the Wheel of Time series ... it’s not anything like what I had in mind when making this OP.

    Tad Williams is one who touched slightly in the area I was thinking. I mean a more intellectual stmiulating experience. That is what I meant by “mature,” intellectually mature not merely stuff written for adults.

    Of course peope can argue that there is stuff out there. I don’t imagine its popular though; which I find puzzling. Something like To Kill a Mocking Bird is what I mean. Something that resonates with people on a higher emotional level, that asks and exposes difficult questions.
     
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Hmm. I don't think of To Kill A Mockingbird as gritty. But, OK, I may see what you mean.

    How about Ursula K. Le Guin's stuff?
     
  19. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, people have suggested Ursula to me before. I’ll get round to it one day. Any specific novel?
     
  20. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Returning to add:

    To Kill a Mockingbird is written from a child's view. Now that you bring it into the conversation, I find myself thinking of Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series, and what it has to say about childhood and adulthood and the loss of innocence--which it' is about, much more than it's about religion.

    And about his argument that these days, stories are out of fashion, and to find real stories, you need to go to children's books.
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Actually, I have yet to read any of her stuff. :) I have no idea why. But now that you mention Mockingbird, that, to me, fundamentally changes the question. I had a very different view of what was meant by "gritty".
     
  22. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    “Gritty” as in “not holding back, not making things appear unrealistic, telling it as it is, and uncompromising.” I guess in this sense that is precisely why it is not typical to fantasy writing: paralleling a fantasy world to reality whilst keeping the reader under the spell of the narrative isnot likely something easily achieved.
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Now that I'm realizing that I totally misunderstood your original question, can you name a few more books that fulfill that general idea?

    Edited to add: And have you read any of the His Dark Materials series? (Golden Compass/Subtle Knife/Amber Spyglass)
     
  24. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere is a good example of how Fantasy can be complicated, intellectually stimulating, and emotional without being dark, or having a ton of viewpoint characters. In intellectual terms, his magic systems are very well defined, and have a lot of mechanics and implications that are fun to dig into. There are fansites like the 17th shard where Brandon Sanderson fans come up with the most elaborate theories about how the different magic systems can be combined to do some pretty ridiculous stuff. The more you dig into his books, the more complicated they get, while they are all still enjoyable on the surface. Meanwhile, they contain powerfully emotional stories. Characters in the Stormlight Archive deal with depression, alcoholism, guilt, impulsivity. Those books contain some of the most powerfully emotional scenes I've read. Yet his stuff appeals to a lot of people, because its complexity is layered. You can dive as deep as you want to.
     
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  25. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    Whilst I’ve been talking about The Bard ... The Tempest is an obvious one. As for novels I’ve not read anything that qualifies really - perhaps Alan Moore, but his work is based on Earth and tend toward historical fantasy. China Mieville’s world kinda moves in the direction I guess ... I think Ursula is a good bet for me. She’s an anthropologist so she likely has a good handle on civilizatoin and human development over time.

    I’d even throw Orwell’s 1984 into the bag too. But again, not “fantasy.” It seems to me no one since Tolkiens has really stepped up to the board and produced anything with any real weight to it. No one has created something truly unique like he did - may as well call the whole genre “Tolkiens” instead of “fantasy.”
     

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