A message too deep.

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by colorthemap, Jan 1, 2011.

  1. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    I'm going to say this in a different way. I googled the difference myself and I already knew the answer, but it helped me figure out a better way to state what I was getting at.

    Before I do that I have written a YA Urban Fantasy that would be considered Edgy. I deal with rape and suicide.

    Adult books deal with themes and handle them carelessly There's no need to have reason to NOT describe how the serial killer (graphic detail) did this or that. Someone mentioned that it was like Rated R movies vs PG movies. In that Rated R movies can be gratuitous (Adult books) but YA handle the same themes but with a sense of care because YA audiences are not fully formed yet in what they believe, so it's a time to explain and mold in a way. And they stated that YA can be written as poorly as talking down to them or as great like Pixar is with their films such as Toy Story III...handling an emotional connection with levity and dramatic flare.

    Adult and YA can talk about the same things. But, as an example, rap can be graphically described in adult books and done so in a manner that could be considered pornographic. In YA the rape can be mentioned and some of the violence that went along with it but the description never gets as far as it does in an adult book.

    Moreover, preparing a child to be an adult doesn't mean you treat them like one as you would throw someone in the water and tell them to swim. YA is a gradual upgrade from MG (middle grade) then it'll go on to Adult. It's progression no anything that should be similar to adult books.
     
  2. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Mine um certainly don't represent my core beliefs why I am using a pen name :) Although my basic beliefs are in flux right now.

    Part of why they don't go as in depth usually is the word count as well.
     
  3. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    Teen Versus Adult:

    I think teens during any time period must have had similar problems.

    Teen Problems:

    1. Coming to terms with a "new body" and by that I me its power and symbolism. A guy may find that he's gotten tall and muscular, but still has a sweet boyish mind. He might stay short, but have the mind of a bull. A girl could suddenly become "a sexy woman" but be a girl at heart. She may find that she didn't develop much and is tiny/tall without the classic secondary sexual characteristics.

    I'm 44, and have pretty much learned how to deal with being built like a gorilla. I fact, the root of "gorilla" is my real last name! I belong to the Ron Pearlman support group for men.

    2. Teens don't always have a solid personality, so they will try on new ones to see what fits.

    3. Related to 2, part of developing a solid sense of self is breaking away from parental control. Depending on the parent, this can be volcanic or fairly easy.

    4. If a teen is insightful they may struggle with developing a set of values/code of conduct. A YA may struggle with being honest/dishonest, a player/romantic, and so on.

    5. Dealing with authority has a lot of meaning for YAs. A story could tell you how, tell you when not to cooperate, or be a big cathartic revolution story.

    Again, if you haven't mastered most of this stuff by 30, you're unusal.

    Adutls:

    1. Finding meaning in life. Say, someone like Han Solo who doesn't give a crap until presented with a meaningful mission.

    2. Providing hope. Stories in the far future where people have beaten disease and are having a better life than we do.

    3. Idealism. Much like 2, fantasy novels provide a time when things were ideal. You didn't need eighteen degrees to get a middle class job and people didn't own you, rather if you were strong and brave things worked out. And, magic is way better than your crappy car that keeps breaking, and so on.

    4. Work. I just read a book where the character was a cyborg cop who stuck to his job no matter what because he wanted to clean up the town. I think that's more of an adult career theme than something a young person would respond to, but that's debateable.

    I'm sure there's more ideas in this range, but I've run out. I also know that when I was a kid, I enjoyed these type of stroies as well because they have a broad appeal as compared to the coming of age stuff, which I did not have a lot of problems with.
     
  4. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    I didn't say they must, except in a case like Lewis where your writing is supposed to represent the being you're sure controls the universe. I'd think you'd want to get that one right.

    Scene: C.S. Lewis arrives at the gates of heaven, looking nervous.

    Jesus, "Now, you're not in that much trouble, but what exactly was that all about.

    Lewis, "I blame my culture."

    Jesus, "Alright, get in there and relax in my glow."

    Lewis, "You're a real lionhearted chap!"

    Jesus, "What!"


    Writing:

    I believe in the principles of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy which promotes that every action and emotion you experience is driven by your belief system, what you learned and observed. So, you can't right a completely objective work. Somehow it's going to have your mark on it.

    I think that's pretty cool rather than a bad thing.
     
  5. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    Why do you think Lewis's writing was supposed to represent the being he was sure controlled the universe? Lewis himself insisted that that wasn't the case. His (fiction) writing reflected the way he considered the world to be organised because that's what he found most natural to write, not because he was "supposed" to. Specifically (as I understand it), he thought that the way you see the world was bound to come out in your writing one way or another whether you liked it or not so there was no point in fighting it.
     
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  6. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    But his work didn't have the same claim to fame until after he wrote it! Are you sure you know better than Christians what Christians should do?
    The question of whether Christianity is a nonviolent religion has been a point of disagreement amongst Christians from the outset. The majority view always seems to have been that it is proper to take up arms against a clear wrong, so a Christian could legitimately serve on a SWAT team dealing with a gunman on the rampage in a high school. There has been a minority but significant view that they shouldn't take arms even in a case like that but should risk their lives to try to calm the gunman down.

    In The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe for example, the legitimate ruler of the land issues a call to arms against a cruel tyrant who is oppressing his people. Most (not all) Christians don't see anything in the Old or New Testament that would stop them responding to such a call by taking up arms. And most atheists seem to have no problem either with the idea that it might be morally acceptable to take up arms in a case that that. It seems to be a no-win situation for the Christians. If they take up arms then the atheists (well, at least one -- you) complain that they're going against their Christian principles (which they probably understand better than the atheist), but if they don't take up arms then they're accused of supporting the wrongdoing by not taking up arms against it like the atheists have done. That suggests to me that it's not the Christians' position that's wrong, it's that some people dislike them so much that they will find a way to spin any position they take against them.

    I've experienced that first-hand. Back when I was a Christian, somebody in an online conference I belonged to posted a suicide note. They did indeed attempt suicide, but the emergency services got to them and saved their life. After the event, somebody posted a tirade against the Christians in the conference, complaining that they just sat back and watched it all happen whilst doing nothing about it. I pointed out that I had phoned the police and alerted them to the suicide note and given them the address of the person (I wasn't the only one to do so, so I can't claim it was my call that saved their life). The critic then launched a tirade against me, asking who I thought I was meddling in that persons affairs and getting the police involved, and telling me that I should have kept my nose out. Do you see the parallel to how you are treating Lewis? If the Pevensey children had said to Aslan "Sorry, but we're committed to non-violence" and done nothing to stop the residents of Narnia being turned to stone or otherwise brutally treated, then what sort of moral message would he have been giving?
     
  7. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    I don't know what to tell you here. It sounds like you're attempting to split hairs. The work has been considered "Christian" for a very long time and from the moment I heard about it as a child. If you're suggesting it's not, then your belief in contrary to the standard.

    Bold: the religion is blindingly simple to follow based on what Jesus said, and he did not say much. It's likely confusing to many people because although the religion is simple, one needs to be a "Buddha" to be a success. That does not appeal to sociopaths who want power, chicks, and money so all kinds of obfuscation was added to make it a "mystery".

    Whatever the case, Jesus states on several occasions and in several ways that you shouldn't kill or seek vengence and you have to love your enemy. It's not ambiguous. So, if you're a "Christian Writer" and you're including that behavior in your MCs it should be handled as a giant mistake or excluded.

    You need to read the "Turn the other cheek" speech, because I know you haven't
     
  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I have read it, however, and I think it is a mistake to interpret it to mean that a Christian can never fight. I don't see anything that conflicts with Christianity in taking up a fight against evil. And indeed that has been the majority view of those who practice the religion for a couple thousand years. The passage you are quoting doesn't instruct a person to be a pacifist and to never fight or defend themselves.
     
  9. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Plus CS Lewis was Anglican. Head of his church is commander in chief of a variety of armed forces. We can safely assume when he chose his denomination after much well documented wrangling - force was not something he objected to.
     
  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    The view of Christianity as teaching absolute pacifism is a minority view, and it is a small minority at that. As digitig said, it's been a subject of debate for many years.

    My grandfather was a minister, and also a soldier in WWII. His view was that the war was justified.

    Regardless of how one may view individual wars or actions, saying that Christianity as a religion does not allow one to fight against evil is inaccurate.
     
  11. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    True very few denominations do teach absolute pacifism - The Church of England clearly does not. The Roman Catholic Church has the Swiss Guard.

    Not to mention the current head of the church that CS Lewis belonged to her husband was a decorated Admiral - 3 of her 4 children served in the armed forces. She now has I think 3 grandsons in the armed forces.
     
  12. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    Again, if that's what you think, awesome.

    But, Jesus never says that and gives three examples in that speech about how to deal with aggressors.

    1. Turn the other cheek, to prove that hurting you can't do anything.

    2. If a man sues you for your coat, give him your coat and your robe. That means you have zero interest in materialism and with rub his nose in it, maybe causing shame to him.

    3. If a man makes you walk a mile, then walk and extra mile with him. That means to make friends with you enemy and show him your strength and zero power he has over you.

    If that doesn't extrapolate to a host of situations, then I don't know what.
     
  13. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    I recall when Pope John Paul II when to Haiti, and got steamed. The "Catholics" there mixed voodoo into the religion and were calling him "Pappa" which is some kind of voodoo term, waying around fetishes, and so on. Just the same, people have said Catholicism is a mix of Roman religion, with saints being a pantheon of demigods and that's why Protestants don't have them. So, British people and most European people were warriors before Christainity came along, and so they morphed it into a warrior religion ingoring what they didn't like, which amusingly is the thrust of the religion.
     
  14. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Doesn't change the fact CS Lewis was Anglican. There is no conflict between being an Anglican and going to war.

    Also Jesus said he came to turn brother against brother and that when he returned it would be with a sword.
     
  15. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    That's a bizarre statement given the course of the discussion.
     
  16. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    Did be graphically speak about violence? No.
     
  17. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    Who?
     
  18. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    not really the assertion is that Narnia is presenting something other than the beliefs CS Lewis held.

    He had carefully considered his denomination and chosen The Church of England. A denomination presided over by a Commander-in-Chief of a reasonable sized collection of armed forces. And a police force.
     
  19. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    How about, no.

    That is not what the discussion is about, at least not the one I've been having.
     
  20. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    It's written by a Christian and from a Christian worldview -- where have I suggested otherwise?
    Christianity is based on the whole of the Bible, not just the bits in red in some editions. It's also based on the supposed continued action of the Holy Spirit, one of the things that is explained in those red bits.
    Not seeking vengeance is certainly not ambiguous in the NT. Where does Aslan propose seeking vengeance in the Narnia books? Protecting others is less clear.
    Here you make it clear that you don't know what you are talking about, because you claim to know something that is factually incorrect. I have read the entire NT many times, including Matthew 5 and Luke 6. Neither version of the speech covers what Lewis put in the Narnia books.

    Oh, and maybe you should read some of Lewis's other work. For example, he wrote a comic sci-fi short story about women being recruited to provide sexual services to the (all male, presumably all straight) crew of a space station. Lewis doesn't seem to have thought that all of his writing had to conform to conventional Christian morality even if you do.
     
  21. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    Overall, if you want to discuss the topic you need to flesh out your arguments because you can't just say "You don't know" without countering my points. I've made many about what Jesus said, so go for it.

    Also, your comment about the Bible is absurd. The thing is written in a linear fashion with the Messiah coming at the end. You don't hop around the document finding what you need if the what the Messiah contrdicts your current goals. According to the religion, and the very logic of it, the commands of the most important creature in the universe invalidates what was disccused in chapter one, if he says so.

    My comments about Lewis stem from discussing the difference between deep philosophical themes, as seen in speculative fiction, and those that carry status quo kind of themes. I believe that Lewis is a type of propaganda for current belief systems, and not deep at all, and I still stand by that.
     
  22. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    Might I respectfully suggest that I know whether I've read the "turn the other cheek" speech, whereas you, despite your claim to knowledge, can't possibly know?
    Er -- no it isn't. It's grouped thematically, not chronologically. And the Messiah comes about 80% of the way through. Well, ok, he comes again at the end, but that's to wrap things up.
    One of those things you'll find in red ink is “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." So the situation presumably doesn't arise.
    Lewis's children's work isn't particularly deep, although it's probably as deep as he could go with his intended audience. Do you have the same problem with his work for adults?
     
  23. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

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    Friend, I'm wrapping things up too.
     
  24. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Assuming the extrapolation is proper. Other scholars put it in a historical context that makes the statements much more limiting.

    But I think the point to keep in mind here is we're talking about Christianity as a religion. The 'religion' is defined by the beliefs of its adherents. If a majority of Christians ignored some portion of the Bible entirely, then that would characterize Christianity for the majority. I don't think it makes sense to adopt a certain interpretation of a biblical passage, an interpretation that is in the minority in the religion itself, and then say that it has to define a tenet of Christianity. Clearly it doesn't, except for a minority of Christians. A small minority.
     
  25. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    CS Lewis.

    All this talk about violence, but not realizing that the violence doesn't exist as it does on TV or in movies. Or even in the movies themselves....it's not violent.
     

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