Ok, so how quiche is it that J.R.R. Martin actually makes an appearance on Gay of Thrones?! For this alone I am putting aside my rule of not reading things that are happening in the moment.
Stannis sold his soul (more or less) to that red witch. He paid his price. Which is a perfect segue into a second point about Dany and Jon I forgot to make earlier. Both are relatively pure characters. Both Jon and Dany are presented as having good hearts. Maybe it's their orphan upbrining but they seem to empathize with the weak, and I'm having trouble thinking of much done by either character that comes off as extremely selfish or cruel. Compare these two noble young people to a world otherwise rife with moral ambiguity. Ned Stark- Screwing up everything in the name of honor Lady Stark- Putting her children before everyone else Cersei and Jame- Incest, murder, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc Tyrion- Murder Aria- Murder? If not yet soon Sanza- Sleeping with the enemy Theon- asshole And the list goes on. The result is an otherwise complex cake that has just a bit too much sugar in it.
Melisandre took control of Stannis' wife first, then took him. I don't exactly love that it happened, but I can somewhat excuse it. And also, despite the horrible things that Melisandre has done, she accurately predicted the Battle at the Wall. Didn't she take some of Gendry's blood in a ritual, and then Joffrey died? I mean, crazy thought, what if the Lord of Light is the one true god? Dany isn't clean. She sold one of her dragons to the slaver at Astapor for the Unsullied.... and she said she WOULDN'T do this. In my opinion, I don't think she knew that the dragon would kill the new master and return to her. Jon did break his vows, and technically he owes the Night's Watch his head because he had sex with Ygritte (although they did find a loophole in the oath, technically). So they're not pure. And onto the others: Ned Stark - Died trying to put Stannis onto the throne like he was supposed to, and tried to get Robert's children away from Cersei so they wouldn't be as twisted as her. Littlefinger betrayed him in the end. Lady Stark - Putting her children before everyone else.... foolishly. I don't recall Tyrion returning Sansa to the north (or ever Lysa Arryn) after Jaime was returned. Cersei and Jaime - There's just too much bullshit between these two for me to write down. Tyrion - I honestly feel that he's like Varys and has the interests of the realm in mind. Stannis' control of King's Landing would have been horrible. He'd been protecting Sansa from Joffrey the entire time. Sansa - I don't recall her sleeping with anyone yet (though I could see Littlefinger soon). She's playing the Game of Thrones, like the rest of the lot. Arya - Only murders bad people. People trying to harm her or her friends. It's a shame she didn't kill Roose Bolton when she had the chancce. Theon - "My real father lost his head in King's Landing."
@Wreybies Good job.. Here I was taking a 5 minute break from writing and now I realize I have to watch 4 seasons worth of recaps of Gay of Thrones >.> I might be slightly addicted to Game of Thrones... @Ulramar Dany sold her dragon to the slavers and then, once the unsullied were hers, she commanded it to burn the masters and for the unsullied to rid the city of all masters and free the slaves. It was a ruse. Petyr admits to Sansa he had Joffrey killed, along with Grandmother Tyrell admitting to having dropped the poison to Margerie. So, unless Petyr is the avatar of the God of Light, I think Mellisandre is 50% luck, 50% clairvoyante. Littlefinger didn't betray Ned until the very last minute. He told Ned to take the children away first then go after Cersei but Ned did the "honourable" thing and warned her first forcing Petyr to defend Cersei (Though, Petyr probably knew Ned would never do something so underhanded) There was no North for Sansa to return to. Winterfell was burnt to the ground, Robb was dead along with the rest of the family, and Daddy Lannister would've never let Sansa return either way now that she was wife to Tyrion and the only thing that would keep the North in check once she was with child. I'm glad Jaime grew up and learned to not be a stuck up little brat now that he fell in love with Brienne and finished battling his demons over his lack of honor and being a kingslayer.
The master intended to kill Dany and retake the Unsullied if I remember right, although it was all a blur. Petyr admits to kill Joffrey. Sansa was accused. Tyrion was accused. Lysa admits to killing Joffrey. I think Melisandre took credit too. Everyone took credit and we still don't know. And yes, Melisandre is a lot of luck and a lot of ruse. I mean, a few episodes ago when she was talking to the Queen and she said that she used a lot of little tricks to convert people, but the Lord of Light does the rest. You really can't blame Renly's death on her being clairvoyante. That was true power. I'm still pissed at Lord Stark for confronting Cersei. That little error cost him his head and thrust the kingdom into war. He was like a little school girl "hehe I know your secret now do my bidding." And I still find it hard to believe that Petyr HAD to do it. No, he did it because he lost Cat to Brandon Stark, who died, and then Cat was given to Ned, who then allegedly had a bastard son after their marriage. Poor Littlefinger is jealous. I'm still confused on the whole North thing right now. Theon invaded, taking Winterfell. Ramsey Snow/Bolton took Winterfell and burned it, then Roose Bolton betrayed Robb and then the Red Wedding happened. Okay, so, what's up with Winterfell right now? I know the Karstarks are upset right now*, but they still should be trying to stop the Boltons. And, if the Karstarks didn't up and leave with their half of Robb's army, the Red Wedding wouldn't have claimed all of Robb's host. * Okay so on the Karstarks, Rickard Karstark (I think that's his name) lost his head for treason AFTER Robb took his wife. So the Freys were a tad bit upset with that. Why did Walder Frey let the Karstark host through the Twins, given that the Karstarks are the Stark's bannermen? On there being no North, what about Jon? I mean, I'd take being the only woman on the Wall over being Joffery's plaything (and then Cersei's after Joff's death). But no, she stayed with Littlefinger. She should know better...
OK, so in both your examples, no harm now foul. She sells her dragon. It comes back. Jon breaks his oath. There's a loophole. You don't notice a pattern here? The follies of the other characters have real consequences. Ned dies. Tyrion becomes a fugitive, etc. etc.
Yeah but add Tyrion to your little list of special characters. Just like Jon and Dany, he's an underdog since he's a dwarf. Plus, apparently Tywin wasn't going to let him die. And I could remove the consequence for every character still alive. Just because it happens, doesn't mean its not a plot twist. At the time its uncertain for every character. Thorne didn't know what Halfhand told Jon, and he hated Lord Snow from the start. So what if theres a theoretical loophole?
@Ulramar Lysa does not admit to killing Joffrey, she admits to killing her husband for Petyr. Petyr admits he planned Joffrey's death with his new friends, the tyrells. Mellisandre is just taking credit to further her own cause. But yes, she does a few tricks with shadows. Littlefinger was definately jealous tha the lost Catelyn, but he is an opportunist. If it would have furthered his own cause to stick with Eddard, he would have but Eddard messed up royally so Petyr had to betray him. Jon is a man of the night's watch, any claim he had or family is now no longer legitimate. @Wreybies How odd.. Not like me to miss out a thread with the word gay in it, lol. It must have been buried on page 2 of what's new when I look there... every 10 mins.
@Wreybies Thanks for sharing. Too many great lines to count. Gotta love how he compares GOT to an Evanescence video.
He's survived all odds, just like Dany and Jon. He may have been born into House Lannister, but he's "the Imp" not "Tyrion Lannister".
ok, there's some key differences here. Tyrian is older and he's smart. He has to be smart because he's an imp. It makes more sense for him to survive. Plus, at the end of book four, he's a criminal and a major sinner, this can't be erased. Jon and Dany on the other hand are children. They have no such wisdom, yet, other people, be it wolves dragons or old men, help them get to where they need to go. The two are not just surviving, they own armies. Plus, relatively speaking , both are pure . Tyrion is a cold blooded murderer. The first two are really nothing like the third.
Tyrion isn;'t a blood coldkiller, he hates death. He kills Tywin because he finally snapped after years of abuse from his father denying him every little right he should have. Tywin also chased out the woman who fell in love with Tyrion and married him, and forced Jaime to tell Tyrion that he had paid her to be his lover as she was a whore. When Jaime admits it to Tyrion and he finds Shae in his bed (A lifetime of being scolded for his whoring and for his first wife) he snaps, kills her and then Tywin. At least, I think Jaime admits the truth before Tyrion kills Tywin.
Gotta agree with most of what @123456789 is saying. I'm not so sure I would call him cold-blooded though. He's a lot greyer in the books than he is in the show, for sure, but let's not forget the stress he was under. Tywin thought him a debauched good-for-nothing, and Shae pretty much drove him to it with her 'Giant of Lannister' spiel. If I remember correctly he did genuinely fear for her life, did his best to keep her safe, and in the end tried to buy her off... she wasn't having it.
Tyrion has had to be smart because, and I'm quoting like the third chapter of A Game of Thrones, "All dwarves are bastards in their fathers' eyes." So he's as bad off as Jon. Dany was truly highborn, though her entire family has been slaughtered and she relied on her abusive brother. He's having to be as smart as the both of them. But the difference is, he's twice their age, so he's already dealt with what they're dealing with (sort of). Tyrion is a much better developed character than the other two, but he's just as invincible as them. Half his nose was cleaved off in the Battle of the Blackwater, yet he's alive. Cersei and Tywin and Jaime sort of have been torturing him his entire life. He's got more resolve despite that than most people do. He was sentenced to death for King Joffrey's murder, then PLOT TWIST Tywin said he's NEVER let his own blood be put to the sword for something. Wait, what? And how would you manage that, daddy Lannister? Now he's on the run, and the whole plan consisted of him NOT murdering Shae and Tywin and Varys coming for him. The Spider could easily find Tyrion, so the plan was bad from the start. Tyrion is just as invincible.
Jaime never tortured Tyrion. Jaime is the only person who ever treated him right, as far as I remember Tyrion saying. It's Tywin and Cercei who gave him issues. A note; Tywin wouldn't have killed Tyrion by letting him get executed. He didn't hate his son enough for that, he just failed to see what value Tyrion could bring to the family being a sarcastic little imp. However, he wanted to give him to the Night's Watch if he simply confessed to the murder and at the same time, force Jaime to lose the white cloak. However, Tyrion couldn't bring to himself to take credit for a murder he didn't commit.
Jaime and Cersei set up the whole whore marriage thing a while back. It was to make Tyrion "a man". That's pretty torturous, in my opinion. Only now has Jaime realized. Well he was backed into a corner when Ser Gregor Clegane killed Oberyn Martell. He lost the trial by combat, and then immediately was sentenced to death. Now he could do what Theon did with Bran and Rickon, but that would require burning another dwarf. I truly doubt he'd hurt those three (unless they've already been killed off and I haven't caught up yet). I think they're the MAIN main characters. It's "A Song of Ice and Fire." Dany is our flame and Jon is our ice. Tyrion, yeah I don't know where he fits in.
@ultramar I think we're losing sigjt of the main issue here. Tyrion is an outcast, disfigured, a dwarf, and a murderer. Jon and Danys are young, healthy, virtuous, and in underservedly powerful situations. Doesn't it seem like maybe just maybe those two characters were created for a different type of appeal? See wish fulfillment.
@Ulramar Sorry but you have it wrong. Once upon a time, Jaime and Tyrion were riding by the King's Road when a woman hurled herself out of the bushes and begged them to save her from murderer/rapists/thieves. The two disperse the miscreants and, I'm pretty sure Jaime made Tyrion look good, so the girl throws herself at Tyrion in thanks. They spend the rest of the night making love and eventually they get married with the help of a drunk Septim. When Tywin finds out, he orders Jaime to tell Tyrion he had paid a whore to act out the whole scene as to make him into a man, Tyrion is of course curshed by the news from his brother. Tywin then proceeds to further his point by having his men fuck her for a silver penny each and then a gold dragon for Tyrion's turn. The girl is never seen again and Tywin even states later in the books he doesn't know what became of her and that she went wherever whores go (A reccuring question of Tyrion.) In the scene during Tyrion's escape from the prison cells via secret passage revealed by Varys, Jaime confronts Tyrion and in a heated argument admits what Tywin made him tell tyrion about the girl he married (Also known as the Kindness Jaime never did for Tyrion).
@A.M.P. You're right, it's so fuzzy for me. But the point's the same. The Kindness Jaime never did is just as bad as doing it, in my opinion. That's standing by and watching, and not stopping it. @123456789 Oh of course. I'm pretty sure they're polar opposites (not just Ice and Fire). Jon is resentful of everyone because they treat him like a bastard, but works for what he wants. Dany is resentful because the Usurper took her throne. In a way, she expects things to be handed to her immediately. But both are in high positions and have rediculous amounts of power. And they just appeal to different people. Though I'm still not sure what Jon's goal is? Dany wants Westeros and her birthright. Jon wants..... to not be a bastard? To know who his mother is? He's just got no set end point.
@Ulramar Maybe to you what Jaime said he did was bad but Tyrion admits to loving his brother for it because it allowed Tyrion to feel like a normal man for once in his life.
What allowed him to feel like a normal man? Him marrying a whore (because that's what he though that entire time)? His father dissolving the marriage? Tywin's men gang raping her and then paying her some silver? Tywin making Tyrion do it too and then making him give her a gold piece because "Lannisters are better"? Making him live in humiliate? Yep, look at all that normalcy. Unless you mean the twenty minutes (I don't really know the length of the marriage but it couldn't have been long) he was happily married.
I've noticed a disparity in how Tyrion is viewed. Seems to me, those who saw Dinklage's Tyrion first turn a blind eye to the less savoury portions of his character when it comes to the books, at least my friends are giving me that impression. They are a 40-60 mix of those who read the book first, and those who who saw the show first. Dinklage has strangely un-imped the imp. He has an interesting take, and I enjoy his work, but I've never bought him as Tyrion, with the exception of rather neat delivery of some of his lines. He's an attractive guy, who instead of having nowt but a crater where his nose should be—and let's not forget the mismatched eyes—has a rather neatly healed duelling scar across his cheek... what? The imp was physically repulsive... his name was used to threaten badly behaved children. Jon and Dany have been groomed for greatness in a round about way... yeah, theyhave had tough times, but compared to Tyrion? I'd have either of their lives before I'd have his.
