Short Story Advice to writers.... or is it?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by DeadMoon, Jun 18, 2016.

  1. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    This is one of the hardest-to-read websites ever, but there's a good discussion of this topic here: http://jaylake.livejournal.com/2688962.html

     
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  2. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I don't agree.

    Unless you want to write short stories.

    I can't schedule writing time. I have to fit it in when I can, and I have to write the story that's in my head. Trust me, it ain't no ten pager!

    I think there's a lot to be said for writers and authors who dole out rules and "do it this way" pieces of advice. I ignore them and do it my own way, as I suspect, they all did at the beginning too.
     
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  3. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    The only problem with that, is that you don't get the chance to put as much into your character's story by way of story arcs, alternative plots, and sideline plots with a short story because you just don't have the time/space to do so.

    With a short story, you are concentrating on going from A to Z via W and collecting X on the way. With a longer length novel, you can start at A on your way to collect B who has actually been beaten by C while looking for D when E, F, G happened and destroyed H. So now I, J and K are along for the ride and A has a new battle to fight. Enter L and M who seem like friends but perhaps M could turn on A when they also encounter N, O and P who are out to avenge Q, R and S who were fighting with T and U, who are actually related to E, F and G. Shock horror! Now V turns up and helps A to end the novel by finally reaching X and Y, but lurking in the epilogue is Z!!!!
     
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  4. hawls

    hawls Active Member

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    I may be getting the wrong idea from your analogy, but if you bring the whole damn alphabet into it, you'll end up with a disjointed mess. If this V fellow is so integral to helping A win the day, you should not be waiting until the end of the book to introduce him. It makes all the other poor letters irrelevant and a waste of everyone's time and emotional investment.

    Just because the format is longer does not necessarily mean you can or should pack more into it.

    Also I wouldn't use the term 'alternative plots'. They should be parallel plots. Unless your story is using some sort of sliding doors gimmick.

    These parallel and 'sideline' plots should always be in some way relevant to your main plot. The beat of the butterfly wing, so to speak, that demonstrably affects the outcome of your primary plot.

    The difference between short form and long form storytelling can be opportunity. Each form provides unique opportunities of which you can choose to take advantage. Understanding the similarities between the two forms can help you use these opportunities more effectively.
     
  5. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    OK, I'll do it simple.

    Short story = Jack and Jill went to fetch water Jack fell down, bumped his head and had it wrapped in brown paper. The End.

    Novel = Jack and Jill went to fetch water, Jack slipped on a banana skin that had been left there by the wife of the brown paper maker to facilitate extra sales from bumped heads. Unfortunately, the brown paper maker was so busy facilitating Jack's needs that he was unable to make enough for Humpty Dumpty!



    Or an even shorter version:

    Short = straight to the point.

    Novel = slight deviation as we explore the side streets and back lanes of characters/places/family/reasons for doing what characters do.




    Better?
     
  6. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    It's not cool to diss the short story. Short stories can be very complex and true art. As an avid reader of short fiction, there is a real skill set there. Short stories are not just for beginners. They are not just simple and straight to the point. I believe reading and writing them teaches someone a lot about story and life.
     
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  7. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I don't think she's "dissing" it. She's just saying, factually, that short stories generally contain one arc and one plot and don't meander with developing as many side characters, sub plots, and multiple arcs. And that's one reason that honing the craft of writing short stories doesn't translate effectively to novel writing.

    Don't want to put words into cutecat's mouth so maybe I should just say that's my interpretation of what she said, and I agree with my interpretation!
     
  8. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    See, that's what I disagree with. Shorts stories can and often do have all that. I'm saying this as an avid reader of short stories. It's quite amazing to see all that work in a short story, but I see it all the time. Look at any short story ever published in the New Yorker and try to say short stories are more simple. If anything, I would say the opposite is true. And cutecat22 did seem like he was dissing the short story, but I would guess from his response that he hasn't or doesn't read very many of them. OMG am I starting a battle? Short story against the novel? That's not my intent at all. I just think there are a lot of great things that can be learned reading and writing short stories. I also feel like exposure to poetry is good for the writer.
     
  9. doggiedude

    doggiedude Contributor Contributor

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    Yuch poetry. Nobody wants to go there.
     
  10. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Eh, we'll just have to disagree. I probably read as many as you, and I think they are certainly simpler than novels and that it takes different skills to write each form well.
     
  11. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    You might have more experience than me working in both areas. Even my novel attempts are no more than novellas. It's an interesting length for a story. I guess I just like working with a smaller canvas. But I think a really good writer can do it all even if he or she chooses to focus on one area. A writer starting out should test all the areas of writing they can, I believe. Short stories taught me how to write a plot in general. Writing one a week taught me how to really commit to writing fiction.
     
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  12. hawls

    hawls Active Member

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    It's rather disrespectful to presume that between short stories and novels one is superior and allows you to achieve more. You can certainly do more in a novel.

    Let's say instead of learning to be a writer, you're learning to be an architect. There are a lot of things you need to know about foundations and angles and balance and support structures before you can go being creative with all those fundamentals.

    The fundamentals assure that your finished building will both serve its intended function and, you know, not collapse.

    You employ the same fundamentals regardless if your building is small or so damn large it blocks out the sun.

    You can't just say, I'm going to be an architect but I'm only going to learn how to make big buildings, I don't even wanna know what goes in to building a small one, if there's anything I should know for big buildings that I should also know for building small buildings because they happen to share the same laws and principles screw them, don't need them, I'm good here.

    So you might design a very pretty big building, and you might have packed a lot into it, but that doesn't mean it's going to serve its intended function or...stay up. Because you didn't want to know what big buildings and little buildings both shared. Because you were so determined that big buildings were the superior display of talent and anything to do with small buildings wasn't worth knowing about.
     
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  13. Wolf Daemon

    Wolf Daemon Active Member

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    It's how I got started. I think it is the best advice, yes making longer stories and developing characters in a novel is different than those of a Short Short it is still worth writing those as much as you can to get a hang of the basics.
     
  14. Wolf Daemon

    Wolf Daemon Active Member

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    So let me get this straight, you don't believe people should start out writing short shorts because (based on your own description of short shorts vs novels) shorts have the basics and novels are more complex?

    How does that make sense?
     
  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think the analogy really works, possibly because I don't think the argument really works.

    It isn't about short stories being a lesser art form, at least to me (I haven't parsed earlier replies quite as diligently as some of you have) it's about them being a significantly different art form. In the analogy, sure, you learn basic architectural principles for both, but you apply them quite differently. There are probably architects who are equally good at designing small and large buildings, just as there are writers who are equally good at short and long fiction, but for most in both fields, there are areas of specialization.

    Suggesting that one should start with short stories even if short stories aren't an area of interest is, in fact, insulting to short stories. It suggests that they are somehow easier to write--that's why they're the beginner's model.

    What I think @cutecat and @Tenderiser and others are saying is that shorts aren't easier to write, they're just different to write, and a lot of the skills and habits that you may develop when writing shorts really won't carry over into long form and may, in fact, get in the way.

    I think one person on this thread has suggested that novels are superior to short stories, and that person seemed to be speaking from the perspective of a reader. Everyone else is just saying they're different, and there's no point in a person who wants to specialize in skyscrapers getting caught up in learning the finer points of residential construction.
     
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  16. Solar

    Solar Banned Contributor

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    They are clearly different art forms. I would say that good short stories are harder
    to write. You have no room for flabbiness. Precision is necessary because of
    limited space. But in novels you can get away with a few rambling pages.
     
  17. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think shorts are harder for some to write, and novels are harder for others to write.

    I really don't think there needs to be a hierarchy here, does there?
     
  18. Solar

    Solar Banned Contributor

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    I never said there needs to be a hierarchy. Just giving an opinion.
    Take it or leave it.
     
  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Take it, leave it... discuss it?

    That third option doesn't work for you?
     
  20. Solar

    Solar Banned Contributor

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    You are correct. It doesn't work for me.






    (Simply because I don't have time right now. I've work to
    do and I'm being distracted lol. Maybe later. Ciao.)
     
  21. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Yep, that's what I'm saying.
     
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  22. hawls

    hawls Active Member

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    Never said short stories were easier to write. That certainly isn't why I recommend beginners start with short stories. To be absolutely clear I don't think one form is easier than the other, more superior to the other, or takes more or less talent than the other.

    The reason I advise writing short stories is to do with time. It generally takes less time to beat out a first draft for a short story than it does for a novel.

    Because it takes less time, the writer can get more critical feedback on how a whole piece comes together more often than, say, every year or so it takes to get a whole draft of a novel completed. The more feedback a learner writer can get on narrative structure as a whole the more their writing can improve. It's a logistics/efficiency thing. Nothing to do with short stories being easier in a technical sense. Which they are not.

    What I come across in so many manuscripts is poor narrative structure. For example, so many Chekhov guns that don't go off.

    How often have any of you been able to get meaningful feedback on how your whole novel comes together? On how you succeeded or failed to use story elements effectively in your novel when the critic is able to see how you got from point A to point B? How often does that happen for the average beginner writer? How often do they put together 80,000 words in a coherent story? How many people do you think could be bothered reading all that? What if it was longer. 100,000 words. 200,000 words?

    The simple fact is that a shorter piece will be easier to complete. And as a completed pieces it will be easier to get feedback on. I can give professional advice on a chapter here and there as much as you like but that just does not compare to the benefits of getting feedback on a piece as a whole, looking at how it all fits together, where it works, where it doesn't, and so on.

    I'm sorry if I've failed again to make myself clear. So tl;dr my advice has nothing to do with short stories being easier to write from a technical standpoint. It's about being easier from a logistical standpoint, and the benefit of getting feedback on a complete narrative.
     
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  23. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    But how well does that feedback translate to novel writing? Not very well, in my experience.

    And for what it's worth, I've had no trouble finding willing beta readers for whole novels. I'm always stunned by the generosity of the writing community (and try to pay it back).
     
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  24. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I find if there are specific devices I wish to sharpen, I can easily accomplish that in short stories. Like doing a better job with setting, dialogue, figurative language, etc., but when it comes to the novel specific portions, there is no training like writing an actual novel. Plot, pacing, and character development are entirely different animals in shorts and novels.

    This is another one of those preferences that depend on the person and their specific goals.
     
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  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Are we circling around? I know I've said this before, just not sure if it was in this thread or one of the other iterations of the same topic...

    It's a Venn diagram, right? I think we all agree on this.

    The elements that are pure novel, the elements that are pure short, and the elements that are novel+short. If the writer needs to work on elements from the novel+short category, sure, it takes less time to complete a short than to complete a novel so why not?

    Except there are all those other elements of a successful short story that the author will also need to learn in order for the short story to be critique-worthy, and learning these elements will not help with learning to write a novel. So a writer could spend a lot of time working on pure short elements and not get any closer to her ultimate goal of writing a solid novel.

    Possibly we're disagreeing about the shape of the Venn diagram, or the size of the overlapping part. Possibly you think that there's a whole lot of overlap, and others are thinking that there's not much at all. So for someone who thinks there's a whole lot of overlap it might make sense to learn the extra bits of pure short writing in order to get timely feedback. But for someone who thinks there's not much overlap it would mean learning a whole lot of extraneous skills, some of which may actually need to be unlearned in order to write a successful novel and decide that timely feedback isn't really that important.

    For me? Once you're past the basic writing skills stage, I think the amount of overlap isn't that significant. So if someone starts writing and already knows (through osmosis or whatever) the basic stuff, I don't think it makes sense to spend time on shorts if what you want is novels. If someone doesn't know the really basic stuff, then, sure, they may as well start with shorts. Or, better yet, scenes from not-written novels or vignettes or descriptive paragraphs or other forms that won't have the need-to-be-unlearned elements of a short story.
     

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