Am I a horrible person!?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by GuardianWynn, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Huh?
     
  2. dedebird

    dedebird Member

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    Yes it is upsetting that people write things just because they think a demographic will like it. But you have the same problem in almost all art as well.
    I'm going to college to get an animation degree with the full knowledge that someone is going to boss me around and tell me what to draw. I see it as the same concept. An editor critiquing the work to make it better suited to a demographic is the same as an artist working on commission. I find that it is very rare when an artist actually just make a piece just because they want to and it sells well, lets take a good hard look at Vincent Van Gogh. Heck even The Mona Lisa (which came up somewhere in this conversation) was probably a commission, don't quote me on that haven't taken my art history class yet! It's just facts of life if you want to make money, you have to be giving something that the consumer actually wants.
     
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  3. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I was more wondering if it is bad that I even feel such emotions.

    But I wasn't ssying art can't have commercial aspects too it. Like in the animation concept you refered too. Your boss may be a paint by numbers person. But they might also love art.

    I wasn't saying art should be unfiltered. Take my art. I work very hard on it, and when soemone notices a true error it in. I fix it. I want it to be good. I want you(Yes you dedebird) and many others to be able to enjoy it. I want you to enjoy because it is a good story. Not because I finger fed you what is considered "in" at the moment.

    That is the difference I was talking about.

    Did I explain myself proper there?

    So you are in animation. That sounds cool. Are you enjoying?
     
  4. dedebird

    dedebird Member

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    @GuardianWynn Yes I actually do understand what you're trying to say! I don't like it either and in general things that aren't "in" but are given a chance turn out to be huge hits. You were saying Twilight was nitpicked to death to be "in". No one likes Twilight except a few crazy people (my sister and mother). Harry Potter on the other hand was denied so many times because it wasn't "in" enough and EVERYBODY likes Harry Potter. Point is sometimes you should take that chance and try, try again.

    I haven't started yet! Classes start next week (my college is so stupid everyone else's college started ages ago). It has always been something I've always dreamed of doing. I'm just hoping that I am cut out for it. Guess I'll figure that out real quick.
     
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  5. NeighborVoid

    NeighborVoid Active Member

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    You gotta learn to seperate your work from your hobbies, even if they are the same subject. The paycheck comes at the cost of complete creative freedom. It's important to develop a strong work ethic because in the end, what you're doing is designing a product for customers.
     
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  6. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think you quite got what I was getting at. I understand why these mentalities are there. I understand that exist and serve a useful purpose.

    I was saying, I feel dirty thinking about it and almost immediately dislike anyone that sees art in purely the money sense. Which may be harsh, but it is an emotional reaction. I am not saying they can't do it. I am saying that someone saying. "Do this because people will buy it. Creative art, eh, no profit in that." It upsets me in the same way as if you were to punch me in the face and my feeling towards anyone who feels that way tend to reflect that of as if someone punched me in the face.

    Is that more clear? lol
     
  7. dedebird

    dedebird Member

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    I don't think you should feel bad for having a strong negative emotion for something you hate. Especially when it's something that you are deeply passionate about, and people pass it by, and in a way corrupt it for moneys sake.
     
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  8. NeighborVoid

    NeighborVoid Active Member

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    As a concept art student, I'd argue that art doesn't become any less "pure" with imposed demographic limitations. For example, if an employer had me design characters and environments for a realistic medieval European setting, It's probably not a good idea to exercise full creative freedom and draw the knights in spaceships and powered exoskeletons.
     
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  9. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    That wasn't my argument either. I mentioned earlier on, that I am fine with revisions. I revise my work too.

    My argument was for those that speficially compromise artistic visions(intensionally using a bad story element) because while making it worse as a story it may connect more with what is "in" at the moment for the purpose of making money.

    Or like if someone gave there tragic story a happy ending to sell more money. Obviously once they did that, it isn't a tragedy anymore and that is the issue. To ruin the artistically sound product of the goal of selling more by painting by numbers.

    I am not for unfiltered art. I know some of my ideas suck and revisions are useful.
     
  10. NeighborVoid

    NeighborVoid Active Member

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    That's because it's a contrived element that is added after everything else has already been developed. These limitations should be set from the very beginning as a foundation for the creative work.
     
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  11. Samurai Jack

    Samurai Jack Active Member

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    Iron Man 3 added an entire 4 minute subplot involving a Chinese doctor, additional Chinese characters, Chinese product placement, all while partnering with a Chinese production company to skirt censorship laws and increase profits. Iron Man 3 earned $124,000,000 in China. United States and other international versions of the film see none of the added content.

    Michael Bay presents Massive Explosions 11: Dinosaur Robots takes the movie to Hong Kong where they are now the saviors of Earth. $300,000,000 in China.

    Not EXACTLY what you are talking about, but these were decisions made not for purposes of advancing a story, but to maximize profits.

    I say sell out hard, sell out fast. Given the option of creating profitable drivel one time, or two times, or Stephanie Meyers times, and then having all the freedom ever to create where my heart takes me... versus grinding out paychecks and occasionally getting to work on something that satisfies me... I'm not even hesitating.
     
  12. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    We don't disagree in this sense.

    :cry:
     
  13. King Arthur

    King Arthur Banned

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    There's also political correctness, like adding black people to historical TV shows where they have no business being there.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You're assuming that money is about money. But to me, the equation isn't that readers get you money, but that the possibility of a book making money gets you readers. If a book isn't going likely to make a certain amount of money, then no publisher is going to publish it. And if no publisher publishes it, then it's not going to get many readers. That is just the way it is right now.

    And, no, I'm not going to go into the self-publishing argument here. Just accept, anyone who was going to make that argument, that the above is what I believe to be true right now, whether you believe it to be true or not. I believe that if you want readers, you need to be traditionally published.

    And I believe that a huge percentage of traditionally published authors are writing their books for the art and the joy, not for the money. Because for most authors, spending the same amount of time and heartache in almost any other profession would earn them WAY MORE MONEY.

    So, why write if you can't write exactly precisely totally utterly what you want to write?

    Imagine that you have a useful concept that you want to explain. You explain it, using all of your most advanced, most education-dependent methods of the use of language, and your audience just doesn't get it. They don't understand, and they're not much interested in understanding, because they think that the explanation is boring. You're not communicating.

    So you change your words, you simplify your language, you make your message more entertaining, you make it more applicable to your audience's interests and experience, and suddenly they're listening. They're interested. They want more. And they are getting some, if perhaps not all, of your message. You're communicating.

    Which is better? To express your whole message, perfectly, to yourself, or to communicate a part of your message to someone else? Would you rather pace around an empty room telling a story to yourself, or tell that story, maybe a brightened and sweetened version of that story, to a crowd of fascinated faces?

    I think that communication is better. Communication is why I write. I can cook for myself, I can sew for myself, I can take photographs that only I admire. But that's not why I write. I write to communicate. If absolute artistic perfection keeps me from communicating, then I'm going to compromise that perfection.

    So if I change my writing to make it salable and therefore publishable, I won't be doing it for money. I could work overtime and make, very likely, WAY MORE MONEY for those hours. If I change my writing, it will be because I want that (virtual) crowd of fascinated faces.
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You're certainly not a horrible person, but I just couldn't disagree with this more. :)
     
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  16. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    My first novel was my baby. I just wanted to write that story. For my second, I started out thinking "what do readers of this genre want to read?" and came up with a story around that. I'm absolutely loving it. I've written 15k words in less than a week, and they're much higher quality than the first draft of my first novel. They're flowing out, and I'm adoring this process. I think it's commercial and that it'll sell, which I'm not at all confident my "baby" will.

    If my approach leaves a bad taste in your mouth, or makes you "dislike" me, I think you're a very odd person indeed. Especially since you keep telling me to change my plot to suit YOUR personal tastes, which in this thread you claim is what you dislike. o_O

    Besides all that, my day job is writing. I make a very good living off it, and I have zero creative control. Clients tell me what to write about, and I write it in the way they want it - even if I think it would be better another way. I earn well above national average, I've had three promotions in three years, and I'm 26 years old. Once again, if my mercenary approach to writing leaves a bad taste in your mouth... I'm laughing all the way to the bank, dude.
     
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  17. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    :cry:
    I didn't start this thread because of our chat. We have chatted on the issue, but that wasn't the reason.

    Many different people had me thinking about this subject. And the opening to the topic was if I was a bad person for feeling this way. Because I realized it is bad. But feelings are feelings inspite of logic.

    I think of you as my friend. :) And I don't think you should change your vision to meet my personal taste. But in discussion the only reflection I can off is obviously based on my own self awareness. But if I have a bad idea I hope you would tell me it is bad.
     
  18. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    It's a bit odd that we had this discussion a few days ago and then you start a thread using many of the exact same terms like "paint by numbers" and "artistic vision" but okay.

    *goes off to write her paint-by-numbers, completely unartistic, commercial novel*
     
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  19. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I don't disagree with any of that. I think part of my message is getting scrambled. Writing simplier or making money aren't bad things.

    And wanting an audience to enjoy the material isn't a bad thing either. I am referring to the aspect of practically not telling a story because you self insert other gimmicks and it can be any art that does this not just writing. Like if it is a movie that tells dirty jokes or shows explosions as a way to make money without telling a story.

    Does that explain it better?
     
  20. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I know we had a similar discussion. But if my goal was just to blast your style, and I didn't want you to see. I wouldn't have posted it here. Or if I did want you to see, why would I be making an effort to say this was not targeted at you. You are on here every day. There is a person that I more inspired this. They are not part of this forum, they are not a writer.

    I didn't try to give details, because that felt rude. But I can see how you mistook this for that.

    And I tried to make a point to say, I don't think it is wrong that you use a different style. Art deserves freedom. I am not saying it should only be done one way. I way mainly trying to confess pent up feeling and how I feel bad for even feeling them. :cry: I am sorry. . . . .
     
  21. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Well. Maybe I am horrible.

    But on the topic. Take a movie I like. Swan Princess. It is a bad movie, it fails horrible at even telling the story it was trying to tell. The faults are painfully obvious but I still enjoy it.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    [/QUOTE]
    The fact that bad art exists doesn't mean that personal taste is irrelevant or that there is an objective standard of quality. And the existence of flaws doesn't negate the existence of possible good parts in the same work.
     
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  23. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    The fact that bad art exists doesn't mean that personal taste is irrelevant or that there is an objective standard of quality. And the existence of flaws doesn't negate the existence of possible good parts in the same work.[/QUOTE]
    I don't get it.

    To me it makes sense to say. There are two rating systems. Personal enjoyment(completely subjective) and how well it was built, such as writing quality, story themes, presentation of said themes. You can say our measure of these is sort of subjective, but they still seem to be measurable. And if they are measurable, than in that sense they can be viewed as objective.

    Which fits with my claim. The movie is bad(objectively not expressing the theme well) but I still like it(subjective) and thus I like a bad movie. When you don't divid these two factors people will boast about a movie being "good" when it isn't. Not to say the reverse isn't equally true. Lord of the rings would be a movie that I would be willing to judge held its theme well(I can't rate as I didn't watch them all) but i found it boring. So I would be willing to say it was a good movie that I just didn't personally enjoy.

    But I am fine with hearing your counter point. :)
     
  24. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    In essence, you are right. Writing is all about communication unless you're writing for yourself. If you're not communicating what you want to communicate, then you need to change your approach.

    However, there can come a point when you are communicating just fine, but WHAT you're communicating has become so altered that it's a different story.

    If creating a crowd of fascinated faces is your primary focus, then hey. Find out what the buying public buys, construct a pleasing formula, and just spoon it out. No problem. Agents and publishers will love you.

    It's a bit trickier to get readers to want something they've never thought about before, or something they actually thought they would dislike, or something that can't be just skimmed over quickly, then rebought under a different title. I find that's the part of writing that is the most challenging. Keeping your individual vision intact, but sucking your readers into your tale anyway. If your readers don't understand something, do what you can to clarify. If they are bored with the way the tale is being told, do what you can to liven it up. But try not to lose your vision, and don't let popular taste dictate what you write about in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
  25. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    But why not, if your goal is for your book to be popular?
     

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