1. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Am I missing something here?

    Discussion in 'Support & Feedback' started by jannert, Dec 11, 2018.

    Edit: This issue has been addressed. Thank you! :) I just noticed yet another person who has just joined the forum today, and has posted a large portion of their work in a non-Workshop thread, asking for feedback.

    I checked the 'Rules' section under Information, and guess what? This practice is not forbidden after all—at least not in the Rules section. The rules for posting in the Workshop are clear in the Rules section. Nowhere is it said that if you want to post a large part of your WIP for feedback that it must BE in the Workshop.

    So what am I missing here? Is it okay for a brand-new member to create a new thread in any section of the forum and post large pieces (four or five long paragraphs) of a WIP for critique? And if it's not, where are the rules governing this? I'm not seeing them. And neither, apparently, are many other new members. I'm sure they're not chancing their arms by creating a new thread asking for feedback on their WIP. They see no reason not to. And neither do I.

    Maybe close that loophole in the Rules section? Either that or I'm wrong, and it's okay to do this? Dunno....
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  2. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Benevolent Ochlocrat Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I think a lot of new members skip reading the rules and just jump in. Look at the ones who don't even check to see what a subforum is for before posting based on some vague interpretation of the name of the section. When I find those posts I just report them for the mods to apply Scalzi's "mallet of loving correction" to.
     
  3. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    My point, however, is that this particular convention is NOT listed in the Rules. So it wouldn't matter if new members read them or not.

    The 'rule' for not posting work for critique in places other than the Workshop may be laid out someplace else on the forum—but the Rules are where I'd go first if I were new. Discovering you've unwittingly violated unwritten rules—and getting your knuckles lovingly rapped afterwards—is not going to engineer confidence in the forum.

    Just write this 'rule' into the Rules section under Information, and we're covered. I don't see any problem with that. It makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think it's here, under "Posting your writing".
    • The text of all stories, poems, or other writing offered for comment and critique must be posted directly within the Writing Workshop.
    This seems moderately clear, though, maybe another phrase ("Requests for critique elsewhere will be deleted," maybe) would clarify it more.
     
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  5. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Benevolent Ochlocrat Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I see what you mean, but it is listed in the "New Member Quick Start Guide". That's an image, so I can't copy/paste, but it's under "But I want to post my STORY!"
     
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  6. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    It's not easy finding the information you need on the forum, unfortunately (as I just discovered, helping @Andrae Smith find where the information is about becoming a Supporter. It's under FAQ ...way down the list.)

    I think these new members who are posting their work for comment on the first day this are missing the section that suggests they can't do that outwith the Workshop. Why not make it clear? It's one of the things people join a forum for. "I want to post my work for critique." While a big deal is made of how to use the Workshop, they're obviously not getting the idea that they shouldn't post work anyplace else.

    Why is this so difficult to find? I was going to respond to the person I saw doing this this morning, by pointing to the section of the forum where this is clearly explained. And I couldn't find it either. And I've been a member in good standing for nearly 6 years.

    I'm trying to remain polite, but at the same time I'm drumming my feet on the floor and growling just DO it! For pity's sake. What's the issue? New people often post work for feedback on non-Workshop threads—often their first day as members. If a problem is constantly recurring—and this one obviously is—then we need a solution. The solution isn't usually to just keep doing things the same old way and hoping for the best. The information needs to be clearly spelled out and put in a place where a new person will see it RIGHT AWAY.

    Something like:

    New Member Alert: You may ONLY post your work for feedback in the Workshop section of the forum. You must meet the requirements for posting in the Workshop before you are allowed to post there. (See below, etc...)

    Don't start new threads asking for feedback in any other section of the forum, or post your work into other existing threads asking for feedback. If you do either of these things, you will be contacted by one of the Mods. The thread will be closed if you started it, or some other action will be taken.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  7. matwoolf

    matwoolf Contributor Contributor

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    Vermin slipped under the wire?

    A malignant loophole maintained for many months by Marxist moderators? If I can use that word.

    I say to you ALL, action is required, act if not now, but when?

    1. It is imperative scourge of the unauthorised assault upon our senses ceases forthwith. I sense the code red condition we have feared for many seasons in our apathy.

    2. Such a flood of strangers as this upon our holy forum is unprecendented and shall provoke backlash. It warrants the strictest counter-measures.. Ye @Daniel, praise HE would surely roll in his mausoleum to witness such a slush soaking of his veil, his relics green in their sedition.

    TELL THEM. 2 CONSIDERED CRITIQUES per submission after training camp and ritual initiation. TELL THEM.
     
  8. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    More like: New Member Walked Right In Because They Didn't See A Fence.
     
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  9. matwoolf

    matwoolf Contributor Contributor

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    'Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I have written 500 words of greatness, but who, where, when, when, when, mom, she's asleep, oh god, no, oh of course google, yes, yes, yes, yes, paste, paste. Oh, that's so much better I can sleep now wake in the morning and wear my crown.'
     
  10. DueNorth

    DueNorth Senior Member

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    Build a wall—and make them pay for it!

    (Kidding—I think the easiest solution is simply to respond to such solicitation for feedback on work by new members by informing them of the workshop, and not providing requested critiques within their requesting thread.)
     
  11. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Technical Admin Staff Supporter Contributor

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    As @ChickenFreak said, this is stated in the rules under "Posting Your Writing". However, I have moved the relevant part the top of that section and made it red and bold. I also added a red, bold message in the NMQS's "But I want to post my STORY!!" section.

    In my experience, people either read the rules fully or completely ignore them. Putting a disclaimer about the Writing Workshop at the top of the rules and/or NMQS is not likely to help much: The members that currently post their stories elsewhere have most likely not read the rules and NMQS (and may not even have looked at the actual forum board to get an idea of the different sections), or they would know that the Workshop is where work should be posted.

    That's my opinion on this matter. Of course, if another mod feels differently and wants to make things even more clear they are free to do so.
     
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  12. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Technical Admin Staff Supporter Contributor

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    As regards how easy or difficult it is to find information, this is one of the things we want to look at for the XF2.0 upgrade. If there is anything in particular that you feel should be made more easily accessible (or anything else you think should be changed) please make a comment about it in the XF2 suggestion thread.
     
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  13. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Thank you. Hopefully the changes you made in both places should make the matter a lot clearer to new pairs of eyes! :)
     
  14. Wreybies

    Wreybies Arroz Con Admin Operations Manager Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Are we talking about the same citizenry of people who ignore every subforum in the top section and dump every single question into General Writing? Ten times a day I move threads with titles that may as well say "My question is 100% about Setting, but I'm not going to put it in the Setting Development subforum."

    Because trust me, I've got thoughts. ;)
     
  15. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I think one overreaching notion that we can use to come up with the organisation of information is this: What will people be looking for? Category names can help, if they are straightforward enough.

    @Andrae Smith is an older member who has been off the forum for a while, so basically he does know what is what. He just has forgotten how to become a Supporter, and asked about it. A new member might wonder what a Supporter is. (Ditto Contributor, or WF Guardian, or whatever else might be there underneath our Avatars.) This information may well be on the forum somewhere, but it certainly isn't obvious where to go look for it. None of the subheadings that come up on the menu bar lead to these items ...at least not on a clear path.

    I don't think the issue is 'gee, nobody reads this stuff so it doesn't really matter where we put it.' Yes, of course many people don't read the stuff and probably never will. But when somebody who is consciously LOOKING for the stuff can't find it? Hmmm. I think that can be worked on.

    By the way, I'm not in any way criticising the way the forum is already organised. It's just that tweaking the categories or emphasis when problems come up seems to be a good way forward.
     
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  16. Wreybies

    Wreybies Arroz Con Admin Operations Manager Staff Supporter Contributor

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    No need to pull the punch, Jan. I'm an admin and I agree with your sentiment.

    A while back, and for like ten metaphorical minutes, we had a button on the front page titled Rules, and the button was red! I loved it. I think maybe the owner thought it looked too... aggressive? I don't know. I don't want to put words into Daniel's mouth. Anyway, it was there and I thought it was grand, and then in very short order it was gone. o_O
     
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  17. Carriage Return

    Carriage Return Member

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    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  18. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, it's the 'requests elsewhere will be deleted' I reckon will focus the subject. I think @Komposten has sorted this well. There will always be people who will do weird stuff with information like this. "I'm not asking for a critique, I'm asking for feedback..." just to name one little avenue they might wander down. But at least the rule is now clearly stated in both places. I think this should help.

    At least it's something we (and the Mods) can point to, if the new member missed it or misunderstood it.
     
  19. Wreybies

    Wreybies Arroz Con Admin Operations Manager Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I also still 100% think the naming of the "General Writing" subforum is a strong factor in this issue. If members are going to post their writing outside of the Workshop, 90% of the time, that's the subforum in which they post it. I really, really, really, really, super-mega-ultra-really wish that subforum had another name that was less catch-all and misleading. It's too close to the top and looks too much like "Oh, General Writing, this must be where I generally post my writing."
     
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  20. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Technical Admin Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. There used to be a "Support us" or "Donate" menu item in one of the drop downs which I went looking for a while back. Actually, there have been a few things I've found myself looking around for, but ended up taking very obscure paths I only know because I tried everything else. One thing was a way to get to the fundraisers page, which apparently has a link hidden in the lower right corner of every forum page...

    We could quite easily add e.g. a "Contribute"-item to the top menu bar, which could hold links such as "Fundraisers", "Donate", "Become a supporter". Additionally it could hold links like "Add a resource", or links to open volunteer spot announcements (like when we're looking for contest admins, critics etc.).

    However, while we have some notion of what we need to bring forward to a more prominent position, it is always important to hear what other people say. Maybe there some function that none of mods use, but is very popular in the community, which is half-hidden? We want to hear about stuff like that. :)
     
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  21. jannert

    jannert Who? Whooo? Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, that's a bit too general, isn't it? It can mean whatever anybody wants it to mean. Like 'here is where I post my stuff.'

    What about the word 'issues?' As in Miscellaneous Writing Issues. Or something like that.
     
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  22. big soft moose

    big soft moose The Moderating Moose Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Too right - "I'm not sure if this is the right place" but I'm going to put it here anyway because I'm a lazy arsehole

    "Admin can delete this if its against the rules" Or you could not write it in the first place
     
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  23. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Technical Admin Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Maybe "Writing issues that don't fit in any other category. I double-checked, I promise!" ;)
     
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  24. Wreybies

    Wreybies Arroz Con Admin Operations Manager Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Wordy, but certainly on-point. ;)
     
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  25. matwoolf

    matwoolf Contributor Contributor

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    Miscellaneous
     
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