Anyone else not a fan of the superhero?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Madman, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Yes, of course. I'm playing around with ideas. And keep in mind, I did say the heroes aren't pathological narcissists, only the villains are, and probably not even all of them. But there are definitely strong narcissistic traits in all or most of them, heroes and villains alike. You need to lay out hypotheses, then you go in and start to evaluate them. And in the early stages you bring in all kinds of ideas, you don't eliminate them until later.

    Next round of thoughts: watching Guardians 2.

    Peter Quill is one of the most narcissistic. G2 is built around the internal conflict between his humanity, the side he got from his human mother, and his godliness (narcissism), from his father, literally named Ego. His father continually appeals to his ego, praising him constantly and saying that he has heard of the legendary name of Starlord (nobody ever reacted positively to it before, they laughed at him). And what he offers is limitless power, the power of a god. But it's clear the cost is his humanity, he'd lose all feelings for his second family (the Guardians) and see them as vermin or tiny scurrying creatures beneath his notice.

    He's powerfully drawn, especially when he gets a taste of the power. But he asks, if his dad was in love with his mom, why did he leave her? This is his humanity, overpowering his egotistical desire for power. Ultimately it wins, he decides against his dad and in fact destroys him when he sees how maniacal he really is. That's true pathological narcissism symbolized.

    His foster father Yondu isn't much better, but ultimately despite his cruelty he's more humane, and Quill chooses him and humanity. This is what makes him a hero rather than a pathological narcissist/villain. Much the same can be said about most of the rest. Thor literally is a god, but though he begins arrogant and self-centered, he undergoes a several-movie-long character arc that drags him through all manner of hell and takes away everyone and everything he loves including his eye (marking him as an adult now, a sacrifice like the one his father Odin had to make to become the king). Iron Man goes through the same kind of arc.

    So yes, I'd say Marvel is definitely using the idea of narcissism frequently throughout the universe, most obviously in the Netflix shows and the more recent ones, which are explicitly built on psychology and especially trauma.
     
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Another important factor to keep in mind is what's known as healthy narcissism. Not the best name, but it is important to feel good about yourself, and a bit of narcissism isn't a bad thing. It becomes bad only if it overpowers your humanity.

    Pride is very important for warriors, and that's what superheroes are. It's important to differentiate between warriors (free fighters) and soldiers, which are more like government slaves. In soldiers what's valued is humbleness and obedience, but warriors need pride and aggression. In fact I surmised at one point that narcissism is used in warrior cultures to create powerful fighters. But that's done by roughing up the kids to make them tough and mess up their psychology in order to destroy their softness. This creates pathological narcissists, which might be good in certain kinds of societies, but not in modern liberal societies. You find it a lot in areas like the ghetto, trailer courts, board rooms, Machiavellian aristocratic courts, and politics. Ruthless powerful people with no compunctions tend to rise up in certain kinds of businesses.

    It's clear Marvel has thought deeply and subtly about narcissism, as well as trauma and other elements of psychology.
     
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  3. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    They all definitely have some narcissistic traits. I think you have to be fairly narcissistic to put on a colorful (or black) costume and say "I'm far more powerful than ordinary people are, I shall protect them!" It takes a great deal of pride and maybe arrogance. The Hulk is almost the epitome of pure narcissistic rage. But for Banner it depends on which movie you're talking about. In The Avengers he did a lot of "Oh really, they want ME on a submarine?!!" Note "me", not 'the other guy'.

    Or does it not count as narcissistic tendencies if you really do have the power? That's my other axiom, that the powers represent the unique abilities and talents we all have and how we choose to use them. I'm just developing the other axiom right now. This is hypothetical thinking. You don't cripple hypothetical thinking by saying "Nah, I don't think so", or it cant' take you anywhere. I find I run into some really exciting areas of thought by following some of these more wild hypotheses. You have to be sure not to discard them out of hand before exploring them though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
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  4. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    A better word could maybe self-centric? They tend to lean toward thinking they know best and they can do it better than everyone else. I agree they aren't quite narcisstic, they don't fit most of the criteria.
     
  5. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    Well narcissist as a label tends to be a clinical term when you brush those characters with them. They have some narcissistic qualities, but I'd be hesitant to label them narcissist.

    I think the greater qualities that we would associate with narcissist is when they lack empathy for others or disregard others. In that sense, nearly every hero in the MCU is directly the opposite.

    I think starlord point about guardians you make is a good case for him to not be labelled a narcissist, because that was his truer/greater nature. Everyone has some form of narcissism as you noted.
     
  6. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I'm mostly using the standard everyman's definition of narcissism here, not a clinical one. Just self-centeredness and arrogance.
    I see it as a spectrum. Some people have some narcissistic traits but aren't fully pathological. I think this is the way @Madman was using the term, Certainly no superhero would be a full-on pathological narcissist, or they wouldn't be a hero, they'd be a villain. But as I pointed out above, Marvel does seem to put some of the heroes on a see-saw with narcissism at one end and humanity on the other, and it seems to be a toss-up which side they'll fall on.
     
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  7. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    Sure, but I don't think that those traits equal narcissism. The word narcissism to me immediately implies a mental illness.
     
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  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    So you're not talking about the same thing I am. Or I believe what Madman was saying in the OP either.
     
  9. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    maybe not :-D
     
  10. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    but even the use of the word in a non-clinical sense has the implication of self-infatuation; not merely pride or arrogance. There's a sense of voyeurism, certainly in the original myth of Narcissus.
     
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  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I would think writers would value the idea of exploratory thinking, where you think all around and through and over a set of ideas, without the instant judgement most people apply to everything. That kind of 'yes or no' thinking doesn't allow you to get very far, you'll just discard an idea before working it out very well because one part of it seems wrong. Maybe I need to restrict the exploratory thinking to my journal and my blog, people seem to expect everything you write in here to be the end result of thinking, rather than the beginning or the process itself.
     
  12. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I would agree. Why the use of a But on the beginning? Aren't we trying to work out ideas here, exploring them, or are we trying to win an argument?
     
  13. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    Sorry, I thought I was engaging with your explanatory thinking. I'm not trying to be confrontational.
     
  14. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think Everyman's word for superhero would be narcissistic though (outside of iron man). There are a few basic traits you would attribute to narcissism even outside of clinical setting:

    1. Selfishness
    2. Lack of empathy
    3. Vanity
    4. Disregard of others

    Superheros would only really loosely fit into some form of vanity. I don't think you'd describe them as narcissist. They may have some form narcissistic quality, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they really have enough to warrant a reflection on that. Apart from iron Man who is closer to a diagnosable narcissist.
     
  15. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Ok, sorry. It felt like I was being attacked by several people at once. Or the ideas were at any rate (and it's hard not to take that personally. Indeed we all do have some narcissistic traits!)
     
  16. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    That's an interesting one; I might almost agree in his earlier films (but again, is he just arrogant and full of himself, or is he a narcissist? Is there a difference in common parlance? Or is narcissism merely their pathological form?), but I think you would have to include in the definition of narcissism an unwillingness to admit one's mistakes, and possibly even an inability to do so (hence its clinical status in at least one or two of its dictionary meanings). In Iron Man, Iron Man 2 and in Civil War (those particularly come to mind) you see quite a willingness to come to terms with himself. idk, lol, I've never thought about this before.
     
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  17. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    Not my intention. I felt like I was a step slower understanding what's going on here. :D
     
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  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    To explain a little more fully, what I was doing was freewriting ideas. Here's a blog post I did about it a while back: Creative Thinking versus Criticism

    Basically you separate your writing into 2 stages, first you throw down all relevant or loosely relevant or maybe-relevant ideas on the table to be considered,. At this stage you don't exclude anything. You brainstorm, you develop, you think in circles and squiggles and triangles, anything that might develop the ideas further. No negativity at this stage. No editing. That's all a function of a different part of the brain, it doesn't come from the creative part. It's negative and destructive. You reserve that for later, when you've done a good deal of development and things are taking shape. I was in the early stages of gathering together what seem to be relevant ideas (like the concepts of warriors and soldiers and how that might relate to the loosest possible definition of narcissism). At that stage I don't worry about precise definitions of terms or sentences. it's about the ideas and hoping they'll start to reveal things about themselves, how they relate together or fail to.

    Yeah, I can see where that's the kind of thing you have to do in private, and not on a public message board.
     
  19. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    Well I agree he had character growth but he still has issues where he disregards opinions and thinks he's the smartest person in the room. Like when he doesn't give his tech to US government and is an asshole doing it. It's very close to functional narcissist.
     
  20. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Yes, an unwillingness, but not a complete inability or refusal necessarily. I do believe he was pretty much a full-on narcissist by the clinical definition in the beginning, but he obviously had the capability to break out of it, which was what happened when he found himself threatened by his own weapons and helpless.
     
  21. Madman

    Madman Life is Sacred Contributor

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    Sorry for causing some confusion, I was thinking that the super hero concept was narcissistic. That you dress up and think you are a good vigilante. That you can play around with the law only because you think you're on the good side. There are few trials and little bureacracy (I hate that word) or interference from the actual law. I understand that a superhero working lawfully on government payroll may not be the most interesting movie (Agents of SHIELD? Which I actually liked and will finish watching that series some day).

    But perhaps having a super hero that is humble and not cocky about their abilities would be boring for most people? I just want to see someone who is more mindful of all the lives they have in their hands rather than thinking about what colour their costume should have.

    And if we take superman for example, why isn't he flying around the world, helping people? Why did he pick one city to operate in? He can fly very fast I take it, still he remains a city boy (just poking a little here, I saw Smalville when I grew up and know of his origins). Sure, even superman need to take breaks from his vigilantism. (To polish his costume so it looks clean and crisp for the cameras. Where are the gritty soiled and ragged costumes?)

    And don't get me started on poor, poor New York that seems to be the center of the universe for Marvel. (And Hollywood in general.)

    I guess all of it comes together in why I simply don't like the whole concept of superheroes. It just isn't for me. (Even though I watch some of them, like Jessica Jones, Logan from X-Men, Agents of SHIELD, Daredevil, and Punisher, maybe more.)
     
  22. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    All of these ideas are actually addressed throughout the Marvel movies. The superheroes have special abilities that make them all unique, and they do represent the individual, so it doesn't make sense to force them into identical uniforms and identical social/team roles as if they're all the same. If you want to see that watch police shows and movies. This touches on why I said earlier that I believe collectivists dislike the whole concept. It basically is built on the idea that we're unique individuals who all have different capabilities. At least some of us, the ones with the powers. As was said in one of the X Men movies, "Those with powers, protect those without."

    In fact a big part of Captain America's arc is that his first film took place in the 40's at a time when the American government was still small and served the people, so he trusted it completely and worked for it. Then when he woke up (he had been frozen in ice for a few decades) he gradually realized over the course of a few films that this was no longer the case, the government had grown out of all control and could no longer be trusted. They didn't serve the people anymore as they were supposed to, but instead tried to rule over them with no transparency and no accountability. So he went rogue and now stands for the American people rather than the government. At the same time he lost his old-fashioned "Golly shucks' morality, a product of the more innocent time he grew up in, and became much more canny and aware.
     
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  23. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    You have to take it in historical context. Superman was the first superhero, created in the early 30's, when the Nazi party was formed, and he was intended to make people feel safe, as if there's a great powerful man of unimpeachable morals protecting us all. It was a much more naive time.

    People didn't think in global terms yet, they thought about their own city and their neighborhood and their family. It's been a long slow growth from individual tribes and then city-states protecting themselves from warlike neighbors, to something approaching a more worldwide consciousness where we try to see other nations as somehow our brothers or our families. It isn't possible to think that way until a society has all it's own internal problems and its safety against its own warlike neighbors well in hand.

    And to protect the entire world you'd need thousands of Supermen!! Actually in the comic books and in some of the movies he did fly all around the world to solve those problems the governments and armies etc were unable to handle.

    As for his costume, it's made of fabric from his home world of Krypton, and it's indestructible just like him. I don't know how Mama Kent was able to cut it and stitch it into his costume (it was his swaddling blankets) but somehow she did. Maybe she used scissors and a needle made of Kryptonite? The power of motherly love I suppose. And the fact that the early superhero newspaper comic strips weren't all that well thought out.

    The concept of superheroes grew from a few ideas in the pulp magazines--in particular the combination of Tarzan and Sherlock Holmes was very instrumental, the savage inside us all and the super-intelligent detective. This idea first found fruition in a pulp hero named Doc Savage (his name incorporates both the savage and the civilized), who wore a utility vest stocked with all manner of miniaturized devices he had invented to fight gangs and criminals. As you can see, his clothing was not indestructible:

    [​IMG]

    Both Superman and Batman were based on him in different ways. His utility vest became Batman's utility belt, and his name was Clark Savage jr (like Clark Kent jr). He had a dome building located at the North Pole called his Fortress of Solitude, where he kept weapons too dangerous to fall into the wrong hands. Superman also had a Fortress of Solitude at the North Pole for the same reason.

    But it's clear to me the very idea of the early superheroes was that they were indestructible, so their clothes never tore or got dirty. Of course they evolved quite a bit over the decades that followed, as comic books became increasingly popular (and made it through the trails of terror launched against them as destroyers of morality, undoubtedly by collectivists who hated the idea of heroes not controlled by the government).
     
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  24. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I can see another way in which the superhero concept can be said to be narcissistic--because the viewers identify with these powerful people who can do amazing things. In a way it's a fantasy of being extremely muscular, powerful, and admired. But of course it also promotes the values of fighting for the greater good over the true narcissists, and of protecting the innocent people from the bad ones. In a sense we all do have power. We could kill anyone we choose, or at least try to. Many of us abuse this power by threatening people in bars or in traffic because they cut you off or you're having a bad day. So we all have to wrestle with the same conundrums the superherpes (lol typo) do, do we use our power for selfish reasons, spurred by momentary anger, or do we try to be more responsible with it? Certain of the heroes really wrestle with this concept, like Wolverine, who has severe anger issues and doesn't like to be part of a team at all. You see this wrestling in Logan, where he wanted to just die in obscurity alone, and didn't want to acknowledge that the girl was essentially his daughter and he owes her his allegiance. But he decided to go out instead as a hero, to die protecting her and her friends, the next generation of mutants, so mutants live on in the world. Otherwise they all would have died then and there.
     
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  25. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    This idea of each individual needing to wrestle with the conundrum of personal power vs personal responsibility is encapsulated in the immortal words of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

    “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

    The early DC superheroes lived in a simplistic world where it was easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys, but more modern superheroes like in the MCU live in a world where that is'n't true--they need to search their own hearts constantly and try to make sure they're doing the right thing. Sometimes one or 2 of them make the wrong decisions for emotional reasons, but their friends will try to straighten them out. This is something we all share with them, and yes, we do all have unique talents and abilities, we all have the ability to kill people or hurt them severely, or to use emotional manipulation or blackmail, so we all must wrestle with exactly these ideas frequently. In fact we all see people using their abilities to hurt others at times: a mother or father emotionally abusing their children, or a teacher giving a bad grade for the wrong reasons. We have to wrestle with the inner conundrum--do we stand up and do the right thing even though it puts us in danger? Or do we just let it go, go along to get along, and let the evil flourish?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
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