Are first and multiple drafts really well necesssary?

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by fjm3eyes, Nov 10, 2018.

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  1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Yes. Probably always.
     
  2. Spirit of seasons

    Spirit of seasons Active Member

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    For me at least there is the discovery of the first draft. Then each editing pass is considered a “draft”. I have done three editing passes on evergreen, though there is a lot of new material that I will have to go over again. Part 1-3 are done, all that remains is one more chapter and the final epilogue for part 4. Then I can let it sit for a wile and work on something else. Finally. :D I’ll still need one more editing pass which shouldn’t be to hard, then I can think of beta readers and finding an agent.

    I have the parts in place for the next project, an adventure story with werewolves and people living fully underground. I only have the barest bones and one character but that should be enough gass to get the snowball going.
     
  3. Siena

    Siena Senior Member

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    Yes.

    The way to find out is to submit it to a publisher. You'll soon realize the first draft just won't do.
     
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  4. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I only ever have one draft - but it has multiple edits both self, beta read, and by a paid editor and proof reader.. so if you consider each edit a draft it would be about 5.. however I never actually sit down and retype the whole thing because why would you if you didn't have to ? That concept springs from the typewriter days when live editing wasn't possible.
     
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  5. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    Yet many successful genre writers say they do precisely that, or come very close to it. Yeah, they'll typically make a few minor changes in the second draft to clean up any problems the first readers spot, but otherwise they just write the book and send it to the publisher (or publish it themselves). When you've written a dozen or more novels, it's not hard to avoid writing plot holes or poor pacing into your book in the first place.

    Writing thirty drafts before submitting the book mostly seems to be a lit-fic thing. Or a new writer thing as they try to fix a story that was broken from the start.

    Even back in the typewriter days, Harlan Ellison used to write short stories in a bookstore window and stick each page to the glass when it was done, so passers-by could read them. Many were published, and some won awards.
     
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  6. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I think the real question is why would you not put in the time to do multiple drafts and editing? I think writing needs to be more than just written down. It needs care and time. And it usually needs more work than we even think it does. @fjm3eyes I write short stories like you and it's really tough out there. The stories I've had published have all gone through multiple rounds with editors who helped make them much better. Thinking you can just bang something out and call it done is foolish in my opinion. And I am talking about short stories that need as much finesse if not more than any other piece of writing. I guess if you're just writing for your own amusement, it doesn't really matter what you do. But if you want to sell short stories, it's a different game. It's super hard, and I can pretty much guarantee that most short stories go through multiple rounds with the author and then the publisher. But you've got to get your story to the point where an editor is going to think it's worth his time to work with you. If you're not publishing your stuff the places you want, it probably means you have to work a lot harder. That's been my experience.
     
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  7. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Shakespeare was supposedly also someone that never edited. But, just like Ellison, there are still problems with his work. Just think how much more amazing these works could have been had they spent the extra hours.
     
  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    But what if there were FEWER works produced by them because they were spending more time on each piece? At would point do we say, "Damn, this is pretty good - off it goes!" rather than continuing to monkey with it?

    And is there a chance that the works WOULDN'T be better? A chance that they would have softened their ideas in order to make them more palatable or nitpicked some of the creativity away?
     
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  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I feel as if we're getting tangled in two issues:

    1) Whether it's possible for ANY writer to write without needing multiple drafts.

    I think the answer is yes. But I don't think that "yes" in any way has an affect on:

    2) Whether MOST writers could write without needing multiple drafts.

    The fact that some people can do it doesn't mean that it's a goal that can be achieved, or even should be pursued, by all.
     
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  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I do totally accept that there should be a concept of "good enough" or "pretty good" as opposed to "perfect".

    I just don't think that most people can get to "pretty good" on the first draft.

    (Edited to add: And I realize that you're one of that rare breed that gets to pretty darn good on the first draft, yes? That makes me stare at you in stunned amazement. But I'll never be able to do that.)
     
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  11. Infel

    Infel Contributor Contributor

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    Also, I don't think a 'draft' necessarily needs to mean 're-write'. I tend to classify drafts as "I've done the best I can do right now, time to let it sit for three months." Then, after you let it simmer and go read a writing book or two, you come back and re-visit it to make edits until it's again "the best you can do right now." Then you let it sit more.

    Each draft forces you to get to the pinnacle of "this is the best that my current abilities can manifest", after which you go out and get some new abilities before coming back and going through it again. I imagine that process ends once you've gotten to a point where you think "To hell with it!" and then publish it.

    ...I like to imagine every author screams "To hell with it!" before slamming their 'finished' work on their publisher's table and storming out of the office...
     
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  12. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    To be perfectly honest, I think most people that 'don't do multiple drafts' actually do multiple drafts, they just have a gift for doing them in their heads rather than on paper. It may be a skill that can be trained, but barring a technological apocalypse coupled with a widespread paper shortage, it's not a skill I feel I need to hone too much.
     
  13. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Probably not. But the folks who come on here for advice haven't published a dozen or more novels, like the successful genre writers to which you refer. One of the things that occasionally drives me a bit batty on this site is when one novice writer tells another novice writer that they don't have to do something because XYZ Famous Writer doesn't do it. For someone who has never published a novel before, I would say multiple drafts are probably a must. If they want to do multiple massive edits and call it the same draft, it doesn't matter. It's the revision/polishing process itself that is a must. As in biology, occasional mutations will occur. But my advice to any novice novelist seeking traditional publication would be to go over their ms as many times as needed to make it the best it can be, and even then it'll be a major challenge.

    I'm (still) a new writer (as in as yet unpublished). The project I'm currently pitching reached 5 drafts before I called it "final". My story was not "broken from the start". But it did need work. Mostly, it needed to have narrative spaces filled in. And, as I mentioned above, most of the writers seeking advice here are new writers in the same sense that I am.

    That was sixty years ago. Before every major publishing house had been bought up or merged up until you could count the survivors on the fingers of one hand. Back when publishing houses hired acquisition editors who hired assistants who read manuscripts that were submitted "over the transom". When it wasn't unusual for an editor to nurse an author through a few poor-selling books to allow him/her to grow and improve. Before computerization turned anyone with a laptop into a potential aspiring writer. Agents are the first line of the acquisition process these days, and they typical agent receives 10,000 queries per year. So, whatever Harlan Ellison did back in the day is pretty much irrelevant in today's market.
     
  14. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    Are you spying on me? Of course you're not, but wow. You named my demon pretty accurately. I'm trying a new approach after years of unfinished works. I'm first-drafting for the first time ever. It's painful to me to leave a line be when I know it isn't perfect, but if it gets me through to the end, it will be well worth it. I'm still making multiple passes at paragraphs and half-pages, but nothing like I used to. I'm learning to let go, and I think it's working. We'll see.
    I recently found out, after abandoning this method myself, that my favorite author, Kurt Vonnegut reportedly edited every paragraph and every page to perfection before writing the next, often progressing as little as a few words in a day, so one meticulously drawn draft was enough for him. Apparently it can be done, but it's almost driven me mad attempting the same, and the (un)finished product, in my case, is overwritten to the point of pretension and utter chaos. Another good reason to keep an older draft rather than editing the hell out of just the one, is that you can look back at a simpler version that hasn't been overworked and over-thought.
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But did he not edit one single word before passing them to his editor? And did his editor edit not one single word before publishing them?
     
  16. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    One of my favourite movies of all time. But Mozart was not only a child prodigy, he is widely recognised as being a genius. (And of course, this is also a movie, which might or might not be correct in every detail. And perhaps Mozart was careful NOT to write anything down till he knew he had it right ...to save paper and ink?)

    So, if you're a genius, maybe every single word that drops from your fingers onto the word processor will be perfect. But I suspect there are more people who assume they are geniuses, than there are actual geniuses creating perfect work first time.
     
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  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    As we live in an age where most of us are producing work on a wordprocessor, the need to retype everything multiple times isn't there. So while we make changes while editing, we don't necessarily call the editing 'drafts.'

    For me, I call it a 'draft' when I've sent it to somebody to beta read. The next draft is when I send it to somebody else to beta read, after having made changes. And etc.
     
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  18. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I got ya on that. I'm new, but I like to make full passes.

    1- Rough Draft
    2: Story / Plot / Scene fixes
    3: Prose
    4: Read Aloud
    Beta
    5: Beta Revisions
    6: Another Prose Edit
    7: Another Read Aloud
    Beta Again

    I usually don't go back or edit until I make it all the way through.
     
  19. EmptySoul

    EmptySoul Active Member

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    I am a firm believer in multiple drafts to gauge the evolution of the work and spot those cut pieces which may find a new life in a different work. Even when my betas post comments through google docs, I retain a separate copy of the draft. Granted this usually results in even a two to three page magazine article or short story having upwards of ten drafts. (And yes, every piece gets its own folder as a result.)
     
  20. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    I can't vouch for the editor, but I'm fairly sure Ellison didn't change anything: certainly he had no qualms about putting the completely unedited pages up for readers to read.

    Wasn't he one of the writers who came from the pulp world? They pretty much had to write one-draft stories in order to put food on the table, so they were used to working that way.
     
  21. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not a novice writer. I've tried various methods of writing a book, and the only one that works for me is the one-draft approach. OK, I usually end up with three drafts, but the third is just typos, and the second is mostly clarification and formatting, rather than any major changes. When I tried the multiple-draft approach, I found that by the fifth draft I'd be putting back much of what I'd cut out in the second draft, because it had been right in the first place.

    And there was nothing in your post that said it was only about those who'd never written a book before. You're right, they probably can't do a good first draft. But most will end up throwing that first novel away eventually in any case. So writing another one is likely to be more useful than writing ten drafts of a story they give up on.

    There aren't many SF publishers who'd turn down a new Harlan Ellison story. I wouldn't be surprised if some are holding seances to see if they can get him to write one.

    And, today, Lee Child says he literally writes one draft and that's it.

    "I don’t want to improve it. When I’ve written something, that is the way it has to stay. It’s like one of those old photos you come across. From the 1970s. And you have this terrible Seventies haircut and giant lapels on your jacket. It’s ridiculous – but it’s there. It is what it is. Leave it alone."

    From: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/lee-child-on-jack-reacher-how-the-best-selling-author-writes-his-mysteries-9959227.html
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Well, a few readers. It doesn't strike me as quite the same thing.

    It's certainly evidence that you can produce something worth reading on a first draft--I don't disagree with you there. But to me that's not the same as the idea that more drafts would be a waste of time.
     
  23. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Editing is an acquired skill, just as writing is. You say you're not a novice writer. Does that mean you've been published?

    That's correct. Anyone who is not a seasoned professional might well agree with what I wrote. At the same time, the OP was clearly not a seasoned professional (else (s)he wouldn't have felt the need to ask the question).

    I've read this six times and it still makes no sense to me. Throwing away one first draft and starting on another without going over the first to see what you did wrong strikes me as a great way to not learn anything.

    But we're not all Harlan Ellison, are we?

    Or Lee Child. But I'd be willing to bet that Killing Floor didn't go directly from word processor to printing press without some major revisions.

    From: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/lee-child-on-jack-reacher-how-the-best-selling-author-writes-his-mysteries-9959227.html[/QUOTE]
     
  24. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    A good first draft is still a first draft. Really, things can only get better from there. I think it's possible to write a good story very quickly. But why? I ask again. And it really does come down to what your goals are. The OP says he's a short story writer. A lot of people write short stories for practice. But I'm in the field of sending mine out for publication. Sending stories out on submission too soon was a problem and still could be. I'm open to letting things involve and change. And from my experience that's part of the pre-publication process with editors and it's also part of the writing process. Think about it this way -- the best stories are always worth telling more than once.
     
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  25. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    My process:

    1. Outline
    2. Rough Draft
    3. Prose
    4. Read Aloud
    5. Prose
    6. Beta
    7. Beta Revisions
    8. Read Aloud
    9. Prose - if necessary
     

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