Are Mary Sues Appealing? If So Why?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by TheDarkWriter, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Definite Mary Sue traits - especially being unaware of her beauty, having men fighting over her, and unusual fighting skills. But I think she is developed enough to avoid being one.

    I was going to use one earlier but thought I'd keep it to females. Now I can't remember the example, damn it.
    I've heard people say James Bond, though I haven't read any so can't comment.
     
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  2. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    It's been literally thirty years since I read them, but Piers Anthony's MC in the Bio of a Space Tyrant seems to fit the bill. I remember the character pretty effortlessly rising from illegal immigrant kid to the presidency, and eventual dictatorship, while accidentally creating an all-female cabinet which I think also served as a harem. Intelligent, hyper-competent women, mind you, who just couldn't wait to service the president because he was just that damn smart and amazing. Even in my teens I thought it was pretty over the top.
     
  3. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    Gary Stu? Superman, when writers do dumb by giving him Super-everyhing. Super intellect, ability to smell things across the county, ability to hear in space, and so on. The attitude that "He's as strong as he needs to be" Stu.

    Eragon clearly.
     
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  4. Lady Fickle

    Lady Fickle Member

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    Here's my attempt at a Mary Sue:

    So our story began in a world without communications, in a Gothic mansion with a huge library in the middle of a dark pathless forest. April, the daughter of Smith Evanston, who was young and beautiful, and an accomplished sorceress. She was traveling with her carriage to the mansion, to meet her future husband Lord Andre Tremblay, a French nobleman. She didn’t know even how he looked, so she was agitated and babbling with her maid about the young Lord of the mansion, who was noted and according to her parents - marriage material. She was wearing a black hat, and short veil, dark gloves, pearl earrings, and little ribbons on her crinoline dress. Her face was remarkably calm, and she was always smiling on the inside. She was poised and well-mannered, kind to all, but with an air of superiority.

    She had come here self-confident and with expectations to marry and settle down, and for a beautiful and true romance. Her mother had taught her how to please a husband with her behaviour, and even how to prepare concoctions for him, if he wasn’t in the mood. She was advanced in the art of magick, she could talk to animals and birds, she could even render herself invisible, she knew about the wonderful virtues of things, and at her young age, she was already a wise woman, aware of her charms. So she followed Andre cheerfully, as she was entering in a somehow darker part of the mansion, she entered the hall, her heart fluttering with expectation… and she saw one of those huge tables, at which two noble people could sit meters from one another and basically only wave at each other during a candlelit dinner. But the young Lord wasn’t there to even wave at her. Never in her entire life had Lady April dined on her own.
     
  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes. I'd say James Bond is a Marty Stu character, for sure. That's why I liked Daniel Craig and Timothy Dalton best. Neither of their James Bonds were quite as Marty Stu as the ones played by Roger Moore and Sean Connery.
     
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  6. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Of course they can be interesting. This is demonstrated by the fact that some books with Mary Sue characters are extremely successful and interest a lot of readers. In addition to the above, Lee Child's character Jack Reacher fits my view of a Mary Sue. He's always smarter, faster, and stronger than the bad guys. He's always one step ahead of them. He rarely makes a mistake; rarely loses no matter the odds against him. The series is incredibly successful because people like that kind of character, and they're fast, fun reads.
     
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  7. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    The Main character is supposed to be awesome. Hell, to me Katniss wasn't awesome enough. I kept asking my brother when she's gonna break out some real whoop ass, but that never came to be. After I heard so much hype about her as well. :rolleyes:
     
  8. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    Okay, on a tangent but distantly related note:

    The not-beautiful/beautiful thing seems to be something a lot of people don't get, particularly men and occasionally women.

    It's simply playing to most girls and young women's fear of aesthetic inadequacy and to some extent their general experiences.

    For instance, I do not find myself beautiful. There are days (or moments) at best I think I'm pretty, not infrequently pretty decent, but generally speaking I feel gross & unattractive. However, I have at least 5 people in my life that assure me I am gorgeous (two are best friends, and it's been proven that the more you like/love an individual the more they appear physically attractive to you so~, two were boys/men who had/have some mysterious sexual/romantic interest in me I still can't quite comprehend, and one is my mother).

    I am not the only girl (lady? I still feel too young for "woman") who experiences this.

    My best friend—who is literally one of the cutest and/or sexiest women—doesn't think she's attractive which is ridiculous. And before my excuse of loving her personality influencing my perception of her discounts the claim, I thought she was stunning and breath taking before I ever met her & just caught glimpses when I first transferred to her high school. She also has a long history of stalkers and creeps and nonstop male attention (and occasional female attention), and every male in our acquaintance have confessed to having a crush on her or finding her really attractive—most have tried asking her out at one time or another. And she still doesn't think she's good enough, doesn't think she's beautiful.

    To lesser degrees, the other female friends & acquaintances I think are cute or pretty or overall good looking all also seem to some degree think their looks are somehow inferior or they aren't quite as pretty as they really are (or I think them to be, at any rate).

    It is a really common issue with young women/girls.

    So most of these novels (which a lot of them seem young adult) are playing to these girl's insecurities & doubt of their desirability. Of course the boys who are interested in a girl romantically find her attractive—it would be weird if they didn't. And yes, in some cases, the author goes further in making the character actually and objectively beautiful but apparently suffering some mild body-image dysmorphia, and in-so-doing validating each girl's secret cherished hope that maybe they are as pretty as a few other people assure them. Maybe just like this heroine, even though they can't personally see it, they are in fact found beautiful or desirable to others.

    And I'm sure there's an equally prevalent trope or character trait aimed at boys & young men playing on their insecurities or desires to make the main character relatable.

    So in short, I don't think every instance of this in a character necessitates she is a Mary-Sue type—often it is just the author trying to have a character relatable to their demographic. Sometimes they are Mary Sues, but not always.

    Perhaps to those who've never experienced this particular insecurity they just find the occurrence in stories a cheap ploy or pathetic attempt to mask the Mary Sue by giving a false imperfection that is inevitably revealed inaccurate: "Oh I am just so plain and ordinary—jk, I'm a goddess of sensuality & desire, bow before me & worship!"

    But I just always attributed to the author attempting to relate to me and this common feeling among their demographic.

    (Edited because somehow the posting cut off the rest of the paragraph and subsequent one)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
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  9. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Because that's often what it is. :D

    If the character is stunningly beautiful because the author wishes the author was stunningly beautiful, it is a Mary Sue trait. It's wish fulfilment, not an attempt to make the character realistic and relatable. That's the difference between a Mary Sue and a non-Mary-Sue.
     
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  10. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    I don' t care about realistic or relatable. I only care about entertaining and interesting.
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Depends on what you're writing. The main character in a certain type of work is supposed to be awesome.
     
  12. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    Yeah, the kind of stories "Mary Sues" typically feature in. Action/Adventure, fantasy, romance. We need to believe this person is head and shoulders over others. Or why are they the star? They're talented or attractive to the point of being the only one worthy of the Edward Cullen or Christian Grey, or Fabio or whatever Mills and Boon dreamboat of the month, or they're the one, by process of elimination if nothing else, who's going to have the power to beat the big bad. And if they combine the two, why not? "Relatable" in the sense of "like us", is overrated. Relatable means making understandable decisions to your audience demographic.
     
  13. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    I am saying I don't think the character is in fact stunningly beautiful

    Often they are found attractive by the romantic interest and maybe a few other characters, but that doesn't mean they are objectively turning heads at every corner and blowing everyone away with their glorious beauty

    If they are, then yeah they are a Mary Sue

    But I find that people just automatically claim a character is a Mary Sue just because they identify themselves as average and romantic interests (and sometimes others) find her attractive and tell her she's attractive

    There are instances where they are, and there are instances where they aren't

    But some people just automatically attribute it to a Mary Sue characteristic regardless
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Doesn't have to be. The phrase "big bad" reminds me of Buffy, who I don't think is a Mary Sue and nevertheless is the one who is usually left to defeat the great evil, or whatever.
     
  15. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Buffy is a wonderfully rounded character. Most characters in the series are. I miss it :(
     
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  16. EnginEsq

    EnginEsq Member

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    I disagree. I wish I was rich. I wish I was 35 again. I wish I could fly on my own wings. But having a character who is rich, or 35, or has wings and can fly doesn't make that character a Mary Sue, or make those traits Mary Sue traits.

    Wikipedia says "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities."

    Wiktionary says a Mary Sue is: "A fictional character, usually female, whose implausible talents and likeability weaken the story," "from the name of an intentionally over-the-top character in the 1973 Star Trek parody fan fiction A Trekkie's Tale by Paula Smith."

    I think those are perfectly fine definitions.
     
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  17. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    There is an argument to be made she is by the standards of people who throw that label around. For example Buffy is shown to be around Spike's strength level in every fight they have. Spike being a vampire who killed like 2 slayers. Maybe she's a little stronger but around the same ballpark. Yet it shown that Spike couldn't lift the troll hammer at all, yet Buffy does it with one hand with no effort displayed whatsoever. In fact later on this guy actually overpowers Spike: http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Doc yet buffy drops him like a bad habit. With one hand again.
     
  18. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    That's not enough to make her a Mary Sue. It's not just being stronger, or even being better than others around you. Buffy has quite a number of flaws. She fucks up a lot; falls down. She gets back up and with the help of those around her, who are critical to her efforts, she is able to succeed.
     
  19. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I was a huge lover of Sweet Valley High which had very Mary Sue characters. Jessica and Elizabeth never changed and they coasted through life in a fairly easy bubble. Boys flocked to them, they defeated enemies, they made good grades, they had their own car, and spending money and if they ever worked it was only for the experience.
    I enjoyed them because it was pure wish-fullfillment fantasy. You knew people didn't live this way but ... it was fun to imagine they could. Who wouldn't want to be a funny bitch like Jessica and still maintain friends, good luck, her status etc? Or be as longsuffering as Elizabeth without experiencing a nervous breakdown or an all out flipout.
    I think part of the experience of reading a wishfullment book is trying to establish their secret so that you too can harness what they have. Does all it take is sea green eyes and a size six figure? To be an adorable twin in sunny California. Maybe a sense of humor helps?
     
  20. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    The issue I listed wasn't one of being stronger. It's one of inconsistency and illogic introduced into the story in order to make Buffy look good. All that extra strength wasn't there before, but suddenly now it is with no explanation.
     
  21. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Think am starting to understand this odd trope/cliche thing a bit better, by simply reading your opinions and thoughts.
    So Mary-Sue/Marty-Stu (?), are the pinnacle of physical and mental perfection, while simultaneously being ignorant of
    these traits in themselves. Well that does sound rather a dull character type. Granted when people fall into this category
    they are just grating.

    And from what @Tenderiser said about this cliche, is that it says something about the author who is writing this character type.
    Almost a wishful thinking on the part of the author to pretend to shed the insecurities and flaws they have by presenting
    such an 'actor' onto their literary stage.

    To quote a thought Marckus has from the first novel:

    Sure is a beauty, but wars are not won by the flashy, or best dressed.
     
  22. cydney

    cydney Banned

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    I just read a few articles about Mary Sues. Sorry to say I didn't know what you meant. I gathered a little from your context ....

    Anyway, just wanted to say the first character I thought of was Pollyanna. I loved Pollyanna when I was young. Still do!
     
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  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    To the extent it isn't supported (though the idea of her being stronger than vampires is; perhaps not THAT much stronger), it's more of a plot hole to me than it is something that turns the character into a Mary Sue.
     
  24. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Funny how the name of that character eventurally entered into the English language as a common noun to mean someone who is obliviously optimistic, eternally wearing rose-colored glasses.
     
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  25. Phil Mitchell

    Phil Mitchell Banned Contributor

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    Kinda like how Rey using Jedi Mind trick is more of a plot hole and not Mary Sue, yet here we are.

    But back to the original point. Buffy is well written which saves her from Mary Sue, but she always has a snark comeback, is exceedingly strong, has 250 year old vampires head over heels in love with her - in fact sex with her was his one moment of "true happiness" in what, a century? She was the one worth risking Angelus over. The one who butchered across Europe and the worst Vampire ever recorded. She beat a god, died in melodramatic fashion and came back to life, even the enemies, Spike, somehow managed to love her without a soul, meaning a friggin supernatural bloodthirsty demon managed to fall in love with her.

    These are the same accusations people throw at Mary Sues the world over. Frankly you have a main female lead in a fantasy, action or romance genre, if someone doesn't call your character a Mary Sue, she's probably passive. Mary Sue is practically a rite of passage now for active, prominent female leads.
     

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