Mary Sue characters, as I understand them, do not appeal to me at all. They just don't feel real to me. Everyone develops flaws over time. Whether these flaws are a result of one or many events that occur throughout ones life or simple a result of whatever society or country in which one resides. Even people who are considered just absolutely fucking perfect people by the masses have their own personal flaws. Its all about balance in my opinion. I usually don't want a character to be so flawed that it just seems like I'm going out of my way to make him/her as unlikable as possible but, I also don't want them to be absolutely infallible. If they lean towards either of these extremes I feel the need to have a clear cut reason as to why they do. Were they abused or abandoned as children? Do they have any mental illnesses, a sociopath maybe? Were they born in a place or at a time where acts of malice and cruelty were simply the norm? I don't think anyone is born good or evil and even then, the definitions of good and evil constantly shift depending on societal change. I think a decent example of this is Adolf Hitler. How did he become capable of such enormous acts of cruelty? If World War 2 had ended differently would the acts be considered cruel at all? I feel that a story's setting and tone should effect it's characters just as much as your characters may effect it's setting.
Yeah, it is. I agree. Pollyanna was a good, kind girl from low means. Her kindness and love turned the heart of an aging crabby woman. I remember wishing I could be just like her. But I wasn't!
I don't believe so. Anywho, when I write a female character in my works, she has personality and cares little for the simplistic things. For instance I have an MC that at few points in her first few days as a new recruit ignores the ogling eyes of the men that she is to serve with, because she is exotic and beautiful to them. And she is aware that others find her attractive, but she doesn't use it to her advantage. Even while doing PT on her first day, her drill instructor tells a group of cat callers to shut up. Though she also admits that she can't stop them from watching as the MC does pull ups with erect nipples poking through her tank-top. And she is far from liked by most, but is more or less respected as a grunt in a very war/clan like species military. She has a brain, and is still considered pretty even after getting a scar on her forehead from a large caliber pistol recoil, and quite a bit later a long scar on her cheek from a knife.
Someone might call the character that, but that doesn't mean they're correct. I think you have to look at the totality of the character, not just the positives. I don't think Buffy qualifies, and I don't necessarily have anything against Mary Sue characters - as I noted above, I think Jack Reacher fits the description and I enjoy those books. You know what you're going to get with a Reacher novel.
This. Exactly. You can be gorgeous. You can be excellent at math. You can be popular. You can be kind. You can be athletic. No singular "perfection" or positive attribute automatically necessitates the character is a Mary Sue. It is the totality of the character and whether they are some ridiculous conglomeration of all that is wonderful, awe-inspiring, and perfect.
I always liked Cordy more than Buffy. Cordy is of course beautiful, even rich for a while, but she had a stronger development arc and lacked super powers (hinky clairvoyance powers aside). In comparison to her, again in my eyes, Buffy comes across more marysueish and at times even annoyingly triumphant and perfect. On the other hand, it's part of being a hero, isn't it? In this sense e.g. Katniss doesn't seem too perfect. I've understood she becomes the hero the hard way. While Buffy is already the chosen one with super strength and stunning looks and hot lovers falling in her feet (that said, she and Spike had great chemistry. It didn't come across forced like Bella & Edward or downright cringey like Ana and Christian).
Cordelia probably has the best character development in the series. Her transformation over the course of Buffy and Angel was mostly well done
If you'd read on a little on Wikipedia you would've seen this: That's the definition I use - the modern one.
Yes, but being "stunning" does not necesitate that the character is "poorly developed" or "too perfect or lacking in realism to be interesting" There are other ridiculous attributes required One perfection or positive quality does not a Mary Sue make
I think I have written a short that has a Mary-Sue type character, but even she is not without fault or flaw.
I think a Mary Sue could be successful if you wrote about her struggles with who she is, or trying to find out who she is. Even a Mary Sue knows she's far from perfect or she's not human. But maybe that's the point? I think the definition Tenderiser pointed out is interesting. I'm not sure I fully understand it....
I've never said that... which part of which of my posts are you arguing with? Either I've worded it badly or you've misread. Of course not every beautiful character is a Mary Sue In fact, I've already said that:
The response to my post Where I said not all characters that think they are not beautiful but other characters think they are beautiful are Mary Sues You replied that in fact they ARE Mary Sues because it's wishfulfilment from the author EnginEsq' reply to you was in support of my stance And my stance is that simply because that trait or trope was present did not alone necessitate the character was a Mary Sue—often it is there to relate to the reader demographic
The one thing I don't like about self-insertion definition is it requires one to ascertain the subjective intent of the author, making it less useful as a definition.
What's the opposite? Because we often get these mathematical type posts - the author asks: 'Nnnh, is this strictly logical, guys?' Really, I'd quite like to read one of those stories where NOTHING IS LEFT TO CHANCE.
Hey you know what I thought was interesting when I was reading about Mary Sues is that male mary sues are called Gary Stus. Also, the urban dictionary definition is good too but far from the Pollyanna type Mary Sue. So, in regard to the title of this post, I'd say if a Mary Sue is too perfect, she will not be appealing. Readers just don't like that anymore. Just my thoughts.
Gary Stus or Marty Stus. I think there was an actual character called Mary Sue who started it all, but I'm not 100% sure. It would be interesting to read her actually!
But everyone doesn't adore Buffy, and everything doesn't go her way. That's part of what makes her not a Mary Sue. Most teachers, for example, dislike her--when she was expelled from school and needed written recommendations to get back in, one of the teachers that she was fondest of couldn't even remember having met her. That would never happen to a Mary Sue. Guys chase her, but guys also dump her and break up with her. When she hits financial hardship, she isn't hired by some corporate executive who recognizes her glorious talent--she has to go work at Doublemeat Palace. She not only doesn't get a car for her sixteenth birthday, her mother won't even let her get her license. And so on.
I think one definition I've seen for a Mary-Sue is that the story 'bend itself to suit her/him', instead of the other way around. Personally, that's my favorite. I can enjoy characters that are skilled and successful (and beautiful), as long as they struggle to be so.
There might be mileage in creating a Mary Sue character (wish fulfillment) for the start of your story (a character who is extraordinarily talented or gifted or lucky) but it turns out they can't rely on their extraordinary talents or gifts to solve the story problem. Or the problem makes them confront something their talents can't control. Or they lose their talent by some misfortune? (A clichéd version of this would be the beautiful man or woman whose extraordinary beauty gets disfigured in some horrible accident near the start of the story. Or a child prodigy pianist like Mozart loses his left hand at the age of 15.)
Yes. And when she runs away, leaves her friends and family, things fall apart. When Joyce dies, she struggles (not to mention not being able to save her in the first place). The opposite of the Mary Sue, who can conquer all obstacles on her own, Buffy needs her friends and family to succeed.
