LOL I also have one where Fyren, one of Socrates other lovers has a fight with him for chatting up a falcon. Its one where they kiss, fight, kiss, fight, and make up I managed that one without a single adverb. I have become so confident writing them now its a problem with my stories.
here are ways to avoid all of those, since they do sound amateurish to me [no offense intended]: 1. '...[verb of your choice] her blossom-scented hair with a soft kiss' 2. '...breathes a seductive offer in my ear' 3. '...brushes my cheek with a kiss'
none taken that is what they are supposed to sound like - it gives the scene the feeling I intend it to have. The young couple are 'amateurish' in their endeavors. I don't wish to avoid them in this particular scene. All of your suggestions to my ear sound too grown up and would turn the scene from innocent to something that would have an icky feel to it. They sound more like a romance novel than I want this scene to feel like. They draw the reader into the situation too much and for this particular couple do not work. Plus this a seventeen year old boy describing the situation - that to my ear sounds more middle aged woman. Something I have been at pains to avoid in my book. I have strong views about sex and teenagers and don't intend to compromise them in my writing.
I would argue that all three of these sentences would flow better without the adverb. To go into specifics: - I think that "gently" is most relevant when dealing with a situation where a lack of gentleness would have a big impact. I remember a sentence in some book long ago where the narrator referred to emergency medical technicians lifting a stretcher containing a badly injured person "incredibly gently", and there it made sense to me - lifting an adult weighing over a hundred pounds without any jolts or jerks is an impressive feat. But a head is a pretty hard, firm surface, so "gently" doesn't have any impact for me, and the adverb weakens the sentence. And I know that you want an innocent feel to this scene, but I think that kissing someone's hair/head, rather than "gently kissing", _does_ have a more innocent feel. - The words in the second sentence make it clear that she's trying to be seductive, so I think that the adverb is redundant and weakening--and, again, makes it less innocent. One possible "better verb" change could be, "She leans close and breathes 'You ain't...'" - My issue with "softly" is more or less the same as my issue with "gently". I realize that a cheek is more delicate than a head, but unless that cheek is bruised or sunburned I think that it's not delicate enough for the adverb to be useful. ChickenFreak
Numbers that end in -ly are superfluous, because using the numbers without the -ly is grammatically identical. First, I'd like to congratulate Aardvark. Firstly, I'd like to congratulate Aardvark. As you can see, the -ly part is useless, and just shows that a writer has little control of the language and its constructions.
I agree with you chickenfreak. I don't think the -ly words make the passage more innocent. The innocence is already lost with the other words.
From everything I've ever been taught, this is incorrect. Although, I do agree that it isn't necessary. Also, I use *ly a lot, but most often at the beginning of a sentence such as: Usually, blah blah blah or, my favorite: Unfortunately, blah blah blah Honestly, I don't think sentences have the same effect without this. I think, if taken out, the sentence is almost meaningless. ^ Did it without even thinking.
I really regret posting this it was stupid of me to do so. Fact is this is 3 sentences taken out of one scene missing the rest of the scene and the other 60K context it fits into, I have rewritten the scene several times and most of the words are a deliberate choice to make it feel a certain way. Which is my point to the OP sometimes in some scenes they have their place - I do not naturally use adverbs I can go most of the book without using them (think I have about six in my 60K words each one has been chosen for a reason), if they are in there I have chosen them because they give something to the scene. My decision to take it the way I did came from reading YA, adult and romance scenes in a similar context. YA ones tended to lean towards some adverbs and gave them a more 'uncomfortable' and 'awkward' feel. One thing I do find interesting is you are taking this from the POV of the cheek and the head, which is my point about context - each word should form part of the whole. The assesments are missing a vital element in it all Angus and Bea. Angus does not usually do gentle he is a huge bloke, clumsy and awkward. For Angus to be tender and gentle is a huge feat. Much bigger for him than a trained EMT being gentle with a stretcher (something presumably they have done many times and should not be unusual - one would presume they could do they job.) - Angus is more likely to have banged her head off something and bitten her hair. (he had the nickname Royal Oaf for good reason). It is also very rare for him to kiss Bea, usually the other way round,maybe tentatively would be the better adverb Again Bea is not naturally seductive - she is quite capable of saying that sentence without being seductive. She has been brought by two fathers and had four brothers and she can be a bit forwards and is not shy about teasing him. Usually she would be joking or bullying him. She would have whispered it in his ear in front of others in other scenes to embarrass him (I don't think big boy refers to him being 6ft10 - she has been calling big boy since she saw him out of the shower, not always in a sexual context its just what she calls him). She usually grabs his face (which right now is bruised and cut, a falcon attacked it, one of his arms is also in a sling) and kisses him hard on the lips. The softly and seductively as it is first person are his observations on it - the kiss felt soft rather than was delivered soft. Her voice sounded seductive to him. Gently is what he is trying to achieve, we do not know if it felt gentle to Bea. Fact is you only see three sentences I see three sentences that form part of and add to a much bigger picture. Each of them in someway develops the two characters and changes the feel of the scene I have written. The scene is deliberatly more told than shown etc
i would be sad to see things like 'furtively' and 'brazenly' disappear....sometimes adverbs can be employed to tighten...just saying....
Elgaisma, you do have the big picture, we don't, so you're in the best position to know what's best. Those that commented on your sentences, myself included, only had the 3 sentences to go on. Anyway, best of luck with your project. Only trying to help.
No I do understand that you don't know the pair involved, I would with an adult scene and different characters probably use the suggestions but as I said this is YA and two characters that have been built over a good portion of a novel (this is about 50K in)- I think although me posting them was probably a mistake it makes the point of the thread rather neatly. The author knows their work, knows their characters, knows the feel they want to achieve with the scene. For me the suggestions by Mammamaia and ChickenFreak would normally be fine but in the this scene make it feel icky. I would be uncomfortable with them present in it. I came to my choice of those three adverbs based on a lot of reading, and careful decisions in context of the characters and the scene. If an adverb is what works best don't not use them. In context for all he is rough and she is bossy these two are incredibly innocent about life and each other. If by this point the reader doesn't get that I have more to worry about in my book than three adverbs lol
Consider the following passage: ********************************** Jake Spoon rode right up to the campfire and jumped off his horse, which was lathered with sweat. He looked around wildy, as if expecting to see someone. "Ain't Lorie here?" he asked. "No," Augustus said, feeling sick suddenly. The night's stampede had caused him to forget Lorena completely. *********************************** That's Larry McMurtry in "Lonesome Dove", throwing down 3 -lys faster than a rattlesnake strikes. And the can of worms was reopened..... Edit ***I'm pretty sure that's an anomaly though. Lonesome Dove is brain candy, it's so easy to read. Probably the only reason he gets away with it is the legendary quality of the 800+ page novel.***
the difference is mr mcm had good reasons for using those 3... and they're used well, not just tossed into dialog tags, as so many poor writers do...
I don't see the need for "completely" to be at the end of that sentence. It doesn't add anything. Also, "suddenly" seems to be in an awkward position. So, I'd have to disagree. I don't see how there can be a *ly/adverb rule. Everything depends upon how it's written and what the writing is trying to accomplish.
Lol, got me there. But I think Elgaisma (Sp?) didn't mean partially forget. Like as in, it wasn't even at the back of his mind?
Hmmm. These, I come closer to buying. To me, "completely forgot" is a common phrase. Is it an American idiom, less common in British speech? In any case, I have no objection to the "completely" here. "Suddenly" also works for me. I can't think of a different verb or phrasing that would convey the "Oh, my God, I forgot..." feeling as neatly. I'd need more context to properly judge "wildly", but I'm inclined to think that it should go, in part because we're over quota on "-ly" words and the reader is likely to start noticing and be brought out of the story. Then again, if this author uses them all the time and the reader's already relaxed into that, it might be fine.
Lorie is Jake's lover, hence the use of the term wildly. He's freaking out because she's missing. As for the use of suddenly and completely, I noticed that he used them to end the sentences, which seems to have made a difference for the better. "No," Augustus said, feeling sick suddenly. which sounds better than: "No," Augustus said, feeling suddenly sick.
I've come across a piece of my own writing where I'm tempted to let a -ly word stay. Thoughts and suggestions are requested. ****************************** The tantalizing view of Rainier was too tempting, despite Kate’s precarious position on the snow field. Quickly, she took the photo, then handed the camera back to Adam. Adam estimated they were two-thirds of the way up the glacier.
You should put your writing in the critique section, but I'll help you with this one. This is how I would fix it. The tantalizing view of Rainer was tempting, despite Kate's precarious position on the snow field. She flashed a photo with the quick twitch of her finger and handed the camera back to Adam. He estimated that they were two-thirds of the way up the glacier. I think you should keep the adverb since there really isn't a verb for "quickly taking a photo", at least none that I know of. There's nothing wrong with adverbs as long as they aren't over done.
Some possibilities that eliminate the adverb could be: She hurried to snap a photo... She took one fast photo... She took one quick photo... She took one hurried photo... One rapid photo, and then she handed the camera... She took a moment to take one photo... She had to take one photo, but then she handed the camera... She couldn't help taking one photo, and then... One quick snap, and then she handed... I'd probably go with: The tantalizing view of Rainier was too tempting; despite Kate’s precarious position on the snow field, she took one photo. Then she handed... I realize that this doesn't specify quickness at all, but to me, combining the precarious and the photo in one sentence implies the hurried action.
The tantalizing view of Rainier was too tempting, despite Kate’s precarious position on the snow field. She snapped the photo, then handed the camera back to Adam. ******************* I'm gonna go with the above. Thanks all for the advice. I'm letting this thread die now, along with the its thread, lol.
I think as a natural tendency I shy away from what I perceive as writing mechanisms. Tools to take the easy way out... The 'ly' as well as 'like' are the two that can make me wince. The 'ly's' have been discussed at length. The 'like's' are another...fake example: 'He leapt from his chair like a monkey jumping from one branch to another'....You know the 'like' comparisons...I find them to drain creativity in writing. Like the writer took a shortcut in the descriptives. In the (fake) example...I would have maybe written it: 'As he leapt from his chair, I was reminded of the monkeys at the zoo displaying such remarkable agility when they leapt from one branch to another.' That also applies to the 'ly's'. These things can be used but if they are a regular part of a writers vocabulary, my opinion is, the writer might be relying on the mechanisms. I think the end effect is that the writing is less engaging.
