Avoiding the rehashed themes/plots/mechanics of Fantasy

When I see these comments I feel like people are self-selecting for the same types of stories over and over. WotC or Pathfinder stuff. Or game tie-ins or something. I read quite a lot of fantasy, and there is a lot of it very much focused on story and character etc. Enough to keep you reading for a long time.

 

I was shocked to discover how many "Mass Effect" (it's a video game I think) books are at my local library.

 

It's astounding the number of books put out to tie into some of that IP. I've only tried to read a handful of game-related tie-ins, and they weren't very good. I'm not saying they're all bad, but my personal experiences haven't been great.

 

In order to take seriously anyone critizing an entire genre, I need them to list and critique the last five books they've read in said genre.

 

Yes, that might be helpful!

 

This cracked me up and I had to agree.

 

Only if you're willing to take Kevin.

 

You could be right. Maybe I need to do better book hunting. I usually get frustrated when I don't find what I want and then give up searching.

 

It's a very small sample size, and it doesn't mean I'll agree with their conclusions, but at least I'll know they've actually read the genre.

 

To answer the question though there is nothing that I am particulary TIRED of seeing. I am willing to read about absolutely anything that I think is good and I find it interesting for one reason or another. If I had one annoyance it would probably be outlandish races as someone mentioned. But if it's good even that won't stop me from reading

 

As an exercise, I'm going to list fantasy authors who I feel write with care for story and character, and aren't just writing D&D style dungeon crawls or rushing from one battle to the next. This will be solely from memory, and each author is one from whom I've read at least one work. I'm leaving out YA, but it will include everything from the grimdark end of the spectrum to the lighter end.

In no particular order:

Guy Gavriel Kay
Kage Baker
Tad Williams
Ellen Kushner
Samuel R. Delaney
Mervyn Peake
Brandon Sanderson
Robin Hobb
Tanith Lee
Angela Carter
Jaqueline Carey
KJ Parker
Martha Wells
Stina Leicht
N.K. Jemisin
R.A. MacAvoy
Steven Brust
Emma Bull
Joe Abercrombie
Mark Lawrence
Steven Erikson
Cat Rambo
Elizabeth Scarborough
Stephen Donaldson
Kristen Britain
Brian Catling
Caitlin Kiernan
James Blaylock
Storm Constantine
George Martin
Roger Zelazny
Lois McMaster Bujold
Elizabeth Moon
Jack Vance
James Enge
Poul Anderson
James Islington
Patrick Rothfuss
Ursula K. LeGuin
Richard Adams
PC Hodgell
Katharine Kerr

OK--that's just a quick brain dump. If I go look at my shelves or use Google I could add quite a lot to the list.

 

I don't think that's uncommon. And it can be hard to come across the right kind of new author. I either download samples on Amazon, or if I want to try someone new I may go to the used bookstore for my first book from that person.

 

It is, at least, a little weird that so much of fantasy is dedicated to a fairly narrow range of medieval western European folklore. And that's probably because it is a cultural shorthand that doesn't require the writer to teach an entirely new pantheon of beings, powers and social structures.


I would be interested in what 1000AD would have looked like if magic and weird beings affected all of the world, not just the leaders of armies and princesses.

 

I think an important thing to ask when creating a fantasy race is "Why not use humans?" Unless your race can bring something to the table that you couldn't express with a human culture (such as the long lifespan of elves), does it need to be different?

I think that also applies to "familiar race, but not as you know them". If your orcs are enlightened Native American expies being persecuted by the mean old racist humans keeping the green man down, why are they sharing a name with Tolkein's elves corrupted in ancient times by a primeval god of evil to be a scourge upon the beautiful things of the world?

 

I agree regarding reusing race names that have been established and doing something differently with them. Unless you’re commenting on the underlying fantasy race (i.e. satire) it doesn’t seem like a great idea. I disagree about defaulting to humans unless there is a specific advantage to using some made up race. I’m perfectly happy with authors using a made up or fantasy race just because they like it and that’s the flavor of their world. I don’t see any advantage to stopping and wondering whether you could just use humans instead. You probably could in many cases, but why feel compelled to do so?

 

It's a matter of taste, of course. But personally, I think if I'm bringing a non-human race into my setting, I want them to be, well, non-human rather than "snooty humans who live in the woods with pointy ears" or "short grumpy humans who live underground". I have the same gripe with urban fantasy, which too often just says "this is a standard vampire" or "this is a standard werewolf" and misses the opportunity to make the setting richer by creating something memorable and distinctive.

And I don't mean "make them completely unrelatable", I'd just like to see authors put more thought into what makes their nonhuman race distinct. For example, I remember a webcomic called Errant Story, where the elves were pretty similar to humans, but there were some occasional insights into elf culture that reminded the audience that there was a real difference. One background detail I remember was that being immortal, elves didn't have a concept of eternal love because even if it took centuries, the lovers would get sick of each other. The closest they came to that concept was if one of the lovers died early at the height of passion, leaving the other to grieve. It had little bearing on the story or the character in question, but it was a reminder that in some ways, these people were very different.

 

Wow thanks for that list Steerpike I am going to check out ALL of those!!

 

Depending on how you're defining "D&D style dungeon crawls," I would argue several of the authors in that fantasy niche "care for story and character."

 

Yes, I agree generally with that kind of originality, though I'll read good stories with traditional fantasy tropes as well. But almost any such story could be told with humans instead of those fantasy races. I don't think you have to default to humans except in cases where you have a very specific need for a fantasy race.

 

That could well be true. I don't think I've read a dungeon crawl type of story in a while, but if there is a good one I'll read it.

 

The thing is most writers don't become authors so people mostly read what gets published. If you're seeing a LOT of tropes they are getting published for a reason. Then you'll see these tropes pop up in amateur writers work because they see them in published work.

If a trope has a good reason for being there it's fine. I dislike laziness in writing. There was a book that was written that turned every trope of it's head and it was a flop. Can't remember name or author just another author spoke about it - it may have been Brandon Sanderson.

 

Last dungeon crawler I read was Terry Brooks' Scions of Shannara or Talismans of Shannara, or another of that series (it's been a while) and the dwarfs in the main party could have easily been human. There was no point that I recall in the story where them being of that heritage was specifically helpful other than to be, "look, we have dwarfs!"

 

There's nothing epic about it. The Vikings were pussies.

 

I think it is. Germanic mythology, history, language; all of it is extremely fascinating to me. That's fine if you don't share my fascination, I guess. I don't know where your statement about the Vikings came from, though.

 

I kind of agree with John Calligan and a few others.
People want to identify with your book. Perhaps you aren't in it for the money and only want a true fan-base that loves your writing style. Everyone has their preferences and each is good and fine under the sun.
However I believe that common ground and character identification is essential to a good book.

People need to relate to your story and the characters in it. They need to understand the lives the live and the decisions they make and the creatures they face.
Calling something an "orc" is hardly generic in my opinion. What is generic is setting orcs as bad guys always or dumbing races down to stupid tropes.
For example, in the story I am writing, humans, elves, and dwarves all exist. They may be considered on the more "civilized" side of things. However in my world these races are minorities. Rather than a world of human and dwarven kingdoms, I am writing of tiny bastions of relatively save areas where one or more of these races have created a city or a few cities that can stand against the tide of monsters within the world. In my world, these overpowering beasts of fantasy are truly powerful. They roam the land freely and are unhindered by puny humans. Thus these races hide away in mountains and behind walls, at least the lucky ones do.

To me this keeps the familiarity of previous experiences but is distant enough to be original still. Still the key is in the telling of the story. No matter what you do it has to be original. If you write about a orc invasion it needs to be original and not a copy of LOTR. If you write about some unknown race or other creature than it needs to be original but has to catch the readers interest. If its just some rehashed name for orc, than its still an orc. You just called it something else.

As for me. I think good vs evil is not just over-done. I think its cliche and outdated. What I really want to read about is stories of regular people being truly changed by their experiences. So many books that I have read(especially in fantasy) deal with heroes or heroines that come into the world with a certain mindset and they stick to their guns and beliefs throughout the book. Sure little bits of their personality change here and there but they seem to end the story relatively the same. They go through spot changes and spot trials but never undergo a full reconfiguration of their personality.
An example is when a person goes to war, they rarely come back the same person. When I write I hope i can make a character that is engaging because of the scars they have earned through their many trials and because of the personality shift due to their many hardships.
Thanks for listening. Sorry I tend write a lot.