Can't identify story structure elements

And their sex.

 

I'd say it's more like learning formal grammar (all the terms and rules and whatnot - like, being able to diagram a sentence or whatever). I can't do any of that, but my grammar is fine.

Just like I can drive a car without knowing exactly how every detail of the engine works.

If the knowledge is useful, we should learn it. But I don't think we need to worry about giving "a sign that [we] care" other than putting in a good effort and producing a good MS.

 

Quoted for truth!

I'm a professional writer and editor (it's my day job) and I can just about tell a verb from a noun. I have no idea what many technical grammar terms mean. I haven't bothered to study them not because I don't care but because I don't need to.

I haven't had complaints about the structure of my stories, and it's not something I struggle with, so why waste my time learning how some guy thinks it should be done?

 

Well, I donno. I'm certainly on the side of 'feel' rather than 'calculation'. But I always do some combination of both.

All feel, and you get some really difficult text to get through. All calculation, and it's boring.

Treat writing as a liiiittle bit of poetry, (inspired calculation), and you're gonna have my attention.

It's for that same reason I just wrote "gonna" instead of "going to." It's not a reflection of my own spoken tendencies; I wrote it that way because I dig rhythm.

 

Treat writing like poetry and I'll put your book back on the shelf.

There is no one correct way to write.

 

I think it's more like knowing which buttons to push and which pedals to tread to make the car go.
Some people might pick that up by simply watching and intuition, but I'm sitting in my car and want to go somewhere interesting and I have already stalled the engine twice and gotten a little bump in my rear because I mixed up forward and reverse.

That's not what I worry about.

(N00b question: What does MS stand for?)

 

I feel as if there are at least three different ideas being discussed in this thread:

- First, the 'isn't' versus 'ain't' question. This is discussing a situation where there is a consensus on what is formally correct, and a writer may choose to violate that standard of correctness for a particular effect.

- Second, @Tenderiser 's "I can just about tell a verb from a noun." This reflects the fact that many people have absolutely mastered the consensus-blessed version of strictly correct language without specifically and formally studying it. (At least, without formally studying it AS grammar with all of the formal terms attached.) I would in fact argue that a very large percentage of people with a mastery of formal correct language "picked up" that ability from speech and especially from just reading books, and that the study of grammar is primarily a process of attaching labels to what they already know.

- Third, I think that while there is a broad consensus for most elements of formal language, the same is not true of the various theories about the structure of stories.

So while I can support the idea of "Learn the formal basics and use that as a base from which to branch out," for language (Edited to add: Where the "learning" is very likely to be "picked up"--the language is formal, not the learning.) I don't feel that it really applies to story structure, because there is a lack of consensus. There's nothing wrong with learning the various theories of story structure, but I see them as "various theories".

Consider organic gardening, square foot gardening, row gardening, wide bed gardening French intensive gardening, food forests, etc., etc. There are many different sets of practices for vegetable/crop gardening, some with elements in common, some with elements in opposition, all worth learning, but there is no single accepted one that a gardener should start out with.

 

Manuscript

@QueenOfPlants, is it fair to say that what you struggle with is the fundamentals of writing? As in the basic technics and methods that go into producing a work of fiction? If that's the case I think you need to start asking specific question about what aspects of it exactly are you having problems with so we can offer better advice.

 

Thanks.

Yes, I started to read about various theories and methods and none seemed to fit the parts of my story that I already have.
I can probably make use of these ideas when starting another story, but for my recent WIP I couldn't make it work.

Yes, it's a bit hard to ask specific questions other than: "Could you please take a look at my outline and help me get some structure into it?"

Thankfully two forum members established contact with me via PM to do exactly that.
I'm very grateful for that and hope they can help me.

I also appreciate all the different input that comes up in this thread.

 

Correction: It's definitely not an outline what I have.
It's only a rough plan. :/
(Still need to internalize all those terms correctly. ^ ^)

 

Read and watch videos at KalBashir.com who is excellent at story structure.

 

Don't sweat it...learn the terms as you need to. Basically it's just a form of writers' shorthand. They are handy to know when someone makes a criticism or when you are trying to quickly convey a particular idea to someone else. Doesn't matter what you call a spade, it's still a spade. The important bit is to recognise what it is and what it does. I've even gone the route of, "Y'know, that tense that constantly refers to 'you'?" I now know that to be second person (duh!) but I'd never come across it before. I'm not a fan and wouldn't write in it myself. The only reason it sunk in at the time, was that someone else asked and I happened to be paying attention.

 

Yes, I'm already reading articles about that.
I'll give Mr. or Mrs. Bashir a try.

Atm. I'm struggling to define the main goals and the main conflict and it seems, I just don't have a story. :/

 

Just remember that sentences like that always end in "yet" I spent years working on an Urban Fantasy world before coming up with a story to tell in it, and even longer before coming up with a story to tell about two of my favorite characters from said world.

 

Unfortunately I already have a ... thingy.
It's not a story, but I have trouble letting it go.

My problem atm is, that the goal of the protagonists seems to be to preserve the Status Quo.
But from what I've read / heard so far, a story is about change.
Now I'm trying to think of something that could change without being identical to defeat.

 

Okay.... seems like some things I've said have been misunderstood and this would be a good lesson for anyone struggling with basic story ideas.

A story tells about a change. Preserving the Status quo can be a goal that requires a change to occur.

Let me give an example. Let say your MCs want to live their lives as simple farmers (the status quo) and an invading army takes over their farm (A problem). The change occurs at the climax of the story when the MCs get rid of the army living on their farm (returning their life to the status quo) though in truth they have grown and changed due to this experience (so in essence, while they achieved their external goal, internally they are changed.)

 

That's perfectly okay. All you need to make a story is to have something threaten their status quo. That will force them to do something. That's what a story needs - something that makes the characters act. Either they like the status quo and want to preserve it when something threatens it, or they don't like the status quo and seek to change their circumstances.

 

The name for what you're talking about is Villains Act, Heroes React. It's done a lot, and frequently very well.

Look at the Overdosed Tropes page at TV Tropes: 35523 stories in the archive feature an overarching lead villain ("Big Bad"), 30357 stories reference other stories ("Shout-Out"), and 25465 stories feature characters who acknowledge a situation as being unexpected ("Lampshade Hanging").

"Villains Act, Heroes React" does not list any examples of stories that do that... Because there would be too many of them.

Go for it

 

Not completely misunderstood.
I think I got what you meant, I'm just wondering how exactly to put it into action in my story.
I'm playing with different ideas and although none of these seem to work right now, maybe I'll come closer to a solution. Don't know.