Copyrights question

Oh my...

 

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It is copyright the moment you put it on paper, or even computer screen.
You register that copyright to enforce your IP rights if they were infringed.
And that is necessary before you can claim statutory damages.

You can have them sign non disclosure agreements to guarantee they wont steal it or send it to somebody else.

 

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To be legal you need to follow the official format. (c) is not a legal notice for copyright. You must use a circle_c symbol or spell out copyright along with the date and the owners name.
It does not need to be on every page only conspicuous for the entire item.

Putting it on paper is THE copyright not a shadow or self claimed at all. Read the copyright law if this is unclear.
You must REGISTER the copyright so you can claim damages in court.
Those are two distinct concepts.

 

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You own THE copyright the moment it is fixed in a medium.
You must identify it as copyright in order to claim damages.
And there is a specified format for doing that. Using a (c) is not a legal notice of copyright.
You must REGISTER the copyright in order to get damages awarded from a court.
This is all clear if one reads the copyright law.

 

You were doing okay on the first part (as long as you're only talking to Americans, which isn't really the case, but... better than usual!), but you kind of fell apart on the last bit.

If someone's a plagiarist, why would a non-disclosure agreement stop them when a copyright doesn't? And if someone isn't a plagiarist, what would a non-disclosure agreement do other than piss them off?

You can protect your manuscript by only sending it to reputable agents/publishers. No non-disclosure nonsense needed or advised.

 

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The international copyright convention applies to everybody worldwide although some countries have local differences in their bureaucratic administration of the way their courts enforce that international agreement.

It doesn't stop them from stealing but it gives you the legal proof to sue and collect damages. The OP was worried about editors and beta readers and the like stealing it.

Nothing will stop a thief who wants to steal.

 

STOP. You're just... you're just wrong, buddy. I know, I should just leave you on ignore and go on with my life. I know, I'm getting far too into the "There's someone wrong on the internet" syndrome. But you're posting about something fairly important, and people might read this and trust you. And you're WRONG.

So... if this is all clear from someone reading the copyright law (again, for the US only, I assume), can you please give citations to the part of the "copyright law" that says, for example, that a "circle_c symbol" or some other declaration is necessary in order for something to "be legal".

 

IN THE US there are statutory damages that can't be collected unless the copyright is registered with the US copyright office. But there are other damages that can be collected without registration, and registration itself is only prima facie evidence that you hold copyright.

And none of this is in any way connected to putting a damn copyright symbol on the manuscript.

 

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Sorry but I am quoting the law and I am absolutely correct.
The law is an international agreement signed by most countries.
Some places it does not apply. Maybe west Kyrgyzstan or Christmas Island.

The administrative details may vary slightly by country but the legal notice is in the agreement.

If you don't want to believe me then read the actual law instead of believing the internet whizdumb of what high school seniors think they know.

 

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You would be the first person ever to collect damages for copyright violation without registering the copyright first.

I have no idea what other damages you could collect but they would have be contractual not copyright.

Registration is the proof that is legally required for you to show that you are the copyright owner and is also required by law to collect damages for copyright violations.

 

I would love it if you would quote the law. Please, QUOTE THE LAW.

ETA: I mean this sincerely. I have a law degree but have never practiced and I'm not American. So I have the education to understand legal terminology, but I don't have an indepth knowledge of US law. If you can quote a statute that proves what you're saying, I'm all over it. I would really love to be educated. But you just repeating the same stuff without ever backing it up with evidence? Nah. That's no good.

 

Hello, @BayView

I don't do law, I don't understand the law, but I do have the U.S copyright website bookmarked, and here is what it says about international copyright (again, not taking sides, just posting what they have.)

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International Copyright

There is no such thing as an “international copyright” that will automatically protect an author’s writings throughout the world. Protection against unauthorized use in a particular country depends on the national laws of that country. However, most countries offer protection to foreign works under certain conditions that have been greatly simplified by international copyright treaties and conventions. There are two principal international copyright conventions, the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works (Berne Convention) and the Universal Copyright Convention (UCC).

The United States became a member of the Berne Convention on March 1, 1989. It has been a member of the UCC since September 16, 1955. Generally, the works of an author who is a national or domiciliary of a country that is a member of these treaties or works first published in a member country or published within 30 days of first publication in a Berne Convention country can claim protection under the treaties. There are no formal requirements in the Berne Convention. Under the UCC, any formality in a national law can be satisfied by the use of a notice of copyright in the form and position specified in the UCC. A UCC notice should consist of the symbol © (C in a circle) accompanied by the year of first publication and the name of the copyright proprietor (example: © 2006 John Doe). This notice must be placed in such a manner and location as to give reasonable notice of the claim to copyright. Since the Berne Convention prohibits formal requirements that affect the “exercise and enjoyment” of the copyright, the United States changed its law on March 1, 1989, to make the use of a copyright notice optional. U.S. law, however, still provides certain advantages for use of a copyright notice; for example, the use of a copyright notice can defeat a defense of “innocent infringement.”

Even if a work cannot be brought under an international convention, protection may be available in other countries by virtue of a bilateral agreement between the United States and other countries or under specific provision of a country’s national laws. (See Circular 83a, International Copyright Relations of the United States.)

An author who desires copyright protection for his or her work in a particular country should first determine the extent of protection available to works of foreign authors in that country. If possible, this should be done before the work is published anywhere, because protection may depend on the facts existing at the time of first publication.

There are some countries that offer little or no copyright protection to any foreign works. For current information on the requirements and protection provided by other countries, it may be advisable to consult an expert familiar with foreign copyright laws. The U. S. Copyright Office is not permitted to recommend agents or attorneys or to give legal advice on foreign laws.

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-OJB

 

So the copyright notice is optional, but may be useful in terms of innocent infringement. I see how that might be useful, but I'm really not sure it would apply to a novel... like, is there anyone out there who would genuinely believe that a novel isn't copyrighted? I don't know, maybe.

I mean, most of my works have the copyright statement in them. It doesn't hurt. But as the quoted passage says, the copyright notice is optional.

(Again, in the US. None of this has any bearing on the situation in any other country, except tangentially).

 

And, as I've said before... the lawsuit stuff is really unlikely to be a factor in anyone's protection of their copyright. It costs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to successfully sue someone in the US, and there are a handful of authors in the world who are selling enough to make that kind of expense worthwhile.

You hold copyright as soon as you put your words into a tangible medium. You can protect that copyright through DMCA or other legal means without any support from the government or from a symbol in your book.

If you're willing to commit a couple hundred thousand dollars to suing someone for infringing your copyright, then... I guess you might want to register your copyright first? I don't know. Is anyone here thinking about spending that kind of money on a lawsuit?

 

I have a lawyer for just 'life' events, not even writing related, and it was a 5k retainer.

 

So no, no I would not sue.

 

Actaully,

here is an approved resource to that will lead to the U.S Copyright website for anyone who is interested. (Sorry you Non-US members.)

https://www.writingforums.org/resources/copyright-law.217/

 

Can we agree on a summary of:

-copyright is granted as soon as the work is put in a tangible form (ie typed onto your computer, written down, etc.)
-the most effective way to protect your copyright, pre-publication, is to only send your MS to reputable people
-most standard copyright protection tactics are unlikely to be effective against disreputable people
-it's probably a good idea to put the copyright symbol on your published books, at least in the US, although you're unlikely to ever actually use it
-it's probably a good idea to register copyright if you're a US author publishing in the US, but you're unlikely to ever actually benefit from registration
-authors in other countries have to sort through their own copyright systems and also be cautious to not accept American-centric versions of how copyright works
-most cases of plagiarism will be resolved either between publishers or via DMCA orders, with no actual lawsuits involved
-?

Is there more we can agree on?

 

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It's an international agreement. The USA implementation of our law can be found at the LOC site. Someone pointed to it earlier.
It may be case law on fair use or some points that are debateable.

 

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To protect your IP you must mark it clearly with the circle_c or spell out copyright and also the date and owner.
copr. is accepted as an abbrev. for copyright if space is limited.

To collect damages you must register your copyright.
Until you do that all you can do is stop infringment not get money for damages.

A thief can steal no matter what you do.

Every country has implemented the administration differently but the copyright law is basically an international convention or agreement that most countries have signed and it spells out the IP rights you have.

If they have no money it is silly spending money on lawyers to sue them. But if they made money eg selling pirated Harry Potter books they would be sued to recover all the money from those sales plus statutory damages. They could afford it and it would discourage other pirates.

 

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§401 · Notice of copyright: Visually perceptible copies2 (a) General Provisions.—Whenever a work protected under this title is published in the United States or elsewhere by authority of the copyright owner, a notice of copyright as provided by this section may be placed on publicly distributed copies from which the work can be visually perceived, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. (b) Form of Notice.—If a notice appears on the copies, it shall consist of the following three elements: (1) the symbol © (the letter C in a circle), or the word “Copyright”, or the abbreviation “Copr.”; and (2) the year of first publication of the work; in the case of compilations or derivative works incorporating previously published material, the year date of first publication of the compilation or derivative work is sufficient. The year date may be omitted where a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work, with accompanying text matter, if any, is reproduced in or on greeting cards, postcards, stationery, jewelry, dolls, toys, or any useful articles; and (3) the name of the owner of copyright in the work, or an abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a generally known alternative designation of the owner. (c) Position of Notice.—The notice shall be affixed to the copies in such manner and location as to give reasonable notice of the claim of copyright. The Register of Copyrights shall prescribe by regulation, as examples, specific methods of affixation and positions of the notice on various types of works that will satisfy this requirement, but these specifications shall not be considered exhaustive. (d) Evidentiary Weight of Notice.—If a notice of copyright in the form and position specified by this section appears on the published copy or copies to which a defendant in a copyright infringement suit had access, then no weight shall be given to such a defendant’s interposition of a defense based on innocent infringement in mitigation of actual or statutory damages, except as provided in the last sentence of section 504(c)(2).

It may need case law to show that << (c) >> is not acceptable although the law is clear about what you need to use.

read all 367 pages of it here
https://www.copyright.gov/title17/title17.pdf

more usa implementation here
https://www.copyright.gov/title37/

list of all international agreements and the countries that signed them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements

Q&A from the LOC administration of teh copyright law:
When is my work protected?

Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.


Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section
Copyright Registration.

Is my copyright good in other countries?

The United States has copyright relations with most countries throughout the world, and as a result of these agreements, we honor each other's citizens' copyrights. However, the United States does not have such copyright relationships with every country. For a listing of countries and the nature of their copyright relations with the United States, see circular 38a

Many basic questions answered here:
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/index.html

 

And you're not going to cite any of that?

I mean... looking back over things, I think I may have overstated some things in this thread. I've left myself open for you to prove me wrong. But you need to prove it, you know? You can't just...

Well. Obviously you can just do whatever you want. But if you continue to just throw things out there without offering any authority, I'll definitely go back to ignoring you.

-ETA: You cited! Excellent! Isn't it fun! So... we've established that if someone wants to use a copyright notice, there's a specific format (in the US). And if this notice is given, it's evidence against a defense of innocent trespass. Okay.

I would argue that innocent trespass is pretty damn unlikely to be a compelling defense in the case of a novel being plagiarized, but still... we have something!

For the rest of the sites you referenced... what is it you'd like me to learn from those sites?

 

Wow, this turned rather violent.

P.S. You do realize that you're looking at tens of thousands of dollars just to set up a lawsuit against a (legally registered) copyright?
Just publish the damned book somehow. If it's on Amazon the publication date would be all the proof you need to validate that YOU are the owner of the work.

I think everybody needs to not worry so much about this issue. It's amazing how arrogant people are. Book ideas are stolen often but that's by your own admission: you tell the idea to someone. No NDA or copyright will protect you. But published works are not even worth discussion. If you wrote the book and published it, too, then guess what? Legally you own the book and no one else can claim it as their own.

End of rant. Done with this thread. I joined this forum to gain knowledge and provide my opinions but you guys f**king scare me.