Cutting words: Why?

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by minstrel, May 11, 2018.

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  1. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    LOL, excellent point!
     
  2. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Yes, it was. Self awareness and all. Or perhaps we're very aware but just don't give a damn.
     
  3. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    The reason I fixated on, "babbling" is because it's a much overused word to describe a brook, or in this case a river. It's something to avoid at all cost, leastwise in my opinion. And another line that jumped out at me, By the side of the river he trotted as one trots. Ah! That's a distressingly bad line.
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    One of the issues with criticizing classics is that they are so well-known that it's entirely possible that what's seen as overused now was popularized by that particular classic. I'm not sure how to find out whether "babbling" was frequently used for water in 1908.

    I'm befuddled. It doesn't make much sense to me to criticize a "line" by cutting it in half...?
     
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  5. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    But what gives you the right to demand what kind of critique you receive? When I critique, I'm giving my impressions as a reader and telling the writer what I liked, what I didn't, and what could make me more likely to keep reading. I'm not critiquing as a ghostwriter trying to match my client's voice. As a writer, I want people to critique me as readers and not "be my Neil Strauss to my Nikki Sixx." Neither of us is right or wrong, so neither of us should be telling people to change their critiquing style.

    Well, no. What she said:

    Except that I would say Nabokov also writes tightly. He uses a lot of words, but each one of them adds something to the sentence. His writing isn't bloated and no word is unnecessary for his purpose. That's what tight writing means to me, and I maintain it's important for every writer to achieve.

    Most people on WF aren't submitting their work or trying to sell it. This is an example of why it's dangerous to try to dictate how other people are critiquing or using critique - we all have different goals and come at it from different angles, and the whole thing is subjective. Nobody can say what's a good or bad critique.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  6. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Thank you for taking the time to respond. Truly, @Tenderiser .That's not a sarcastic statement.

    My questions, in response--and again, I ask them because I'm trying to understand, not to compose a sarcastic response in retort--are:

    What's your purpose in critiquing? Why are you going into the threads, taking your time, and posting your thoughtful critique?

    My guess would be that you want to to try to help your fellow writers get better? (And if that's not your purpose, then that's cool. I can only guess.)

    So if you're wanting to help me/us get better, I'm trying to give you as much information as possible as to how you can help me/us do that, so you're not wasting the time you're willing to give.

    I'm not trying to "dictate" or "demand" anything. I'm trying to help you help me/us. Just as I would want someone to help me to help them.

    Seriously. If someone wants my help and I'm trying to help them, I want to know if I'm approaching the issue in a way that's most helpful to them, so I can try again if need be. Otherwise I've wasted that time.

    Their giving me that feedback as to how to help them also helps me improve the way I approach helping the next person.

    If it helps to know, I kind of understand it from the critiquer's POV, because my day gig involves advising clients, which often--make that usually-- involves telling them things they don't want to hear.

    And I want them to tell me if the way I'm approaching the issue isn't working for them, so I can try from another angle.

    I could say to them, "Who are you to demand the kind of advice I'm giving you?" But that wouldn't be helpful to me or the person seeking counsel. So instead, I want feedback from them so I can give them that counsel in a way that will help them, and that they can understand and apply it. I'm still giving them the same advice...it's just in a different form, so to speak. But my advice to them would be useless, and my time wasted, if they can't understand or know how to apply it. It would be bad advice.

    So yes, bad critique is critique that isn't understandable or can't be applied because the receiver doesn't understand how to break it down because enough information hasn't been given.

    edited for clarity (person changed to receiver)
     
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  7. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I'm not trying to be sarcastic either, and I hope it isn't coming across that way.

    That, and helping my own writing by honing my ability to see problems and find solutions. I don't agree with some that critique is more beneficial to the giver than receiver, but I think it's beneficial to both, for sure.

    Are you expecting everybody on this site to take note of your preferences and apply them? I think that's... ambitious. We can preface our workshop entries with "I'm looking for critique on X, Y, Z rather than A, B, C" but if you're asking people not to do a very normal part of critiquing (e.g. commenting on style and voice, or showing how they'd rewrite a sentence to illustrate a point) then it's mostly going to get ignored. People will either carry on critiquing in the way they think is best, or they won't critique that writer at all. I don't see who wins in that scenario.

    I know that when I've seen people arguing with their critiquers in the workshop, I make a mental note never to comment on that writer's work. I doubt I'm the only one. Which of us is losing out? I don't find any shortage of people asking for critique, but I do see people struggling to find enough critiquers for their piece...

    I also don't find it a waste of my time if I critique a piece and the author declares it useless. I find it rude, sure, but it's not a waste of my time. I learned something even if they didn't.

    I think there are very few absolutes here. I would say critique that focuses on the writer rather than the writing is bad, but apart from that? Too subjective for anybody to declare what's good or bad. You consider 'good' critique that which helps a writer polish their piece for submission to an agent or commercial editor, but not everybody (not even most on WF) is writing for that purpose. You've said critique that suggests changes which don't match the tone of the piece are "utterly useless," but I find it *really* valuable to know if my tone isn't working for readers. I'd be fine with them showing me by example. I'd be fine with them saying "I don't like the voice of this piece" without any elaboration. You would call that bad critique, I wouldn't. Everybody else here will have their own opinions. It's not an absolute.

    I believe as a general rule that people treat others how they wanted to be treated (lots of exceptions, of course). I think this is true of critique in most cases: we critique in the way we would find most helpful if we were on the receiving end of it. By telling people you don't like their critique style and would rather they do it another way, you're not going to change them. Either they're going to be put off critiquing altogether, or just put off critiquing your work.

    If you only accept a narrow band of critique and consider other things above criticism, you're cutting off an awful lot of opportunities to improve yourself as a writer. I don't want to do that.

    What it comes down to is that I already critique in the way I think is most helpful and I'm going to carry on doing that. I don't think it helps someone as a writer to say, "Don't suggest I cut words because I'm not willing to do that." They can be as unwilling as they like - doesn't change the fact that I think their writing would be better if it were less bloated. I don't see it as a kindness to ignore the bloatedness of their writing.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  8. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Hold up!!! Wait one damn minute there. I'm being accused of something I did not say, nor ever would.

    If you interpreted that way, that was not my intention at all.

    I am NOT in ANY way, form or fashion saying don't cut!!!!!!

    Never have I ever said that at all. Cuts are necessary. Absolutely!

    What I'm saying is, cut in a way that retains the voice so that sentence still sounds like the author. That's all. Because no one can use the advice if the sentence doesn't sound like their writing.

    And I take issue with the term arguing. Again, that's not at all what I'm doing when I'm responding to a critiquer. I'm trying to give them additional information.

    If the person receiving the critique is expected to keep their ego in check, that goes double for the person giving the critique, because no one wants to be talked down to like a child, or falsely accused of anger that isn't there. False accusations, though? That's a street fight waiting to happen.
     
  9. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Please keep things civil, people. There's no reason for a thread like this to get too heated.
     
  10. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    People are always going to be rude online. You're not paying them, and you're not face to face. Worse, writing a letter giving advice is difficult, and we read insult into bad ones when they might not even be intentionally offensive. Finally, yes, some people love being asked for advice because it puts them in what feels like a superior social situation, and yeah, some people indulge in that by being rude. That doesn't necessarily mean their critique is wrong. It just means you won't be inviting them to the cookout later.
     
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  11. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Let's not forget that some people plain and simply are not ready for critique. They don't want to hear the truth--that their writing, as presented, is lacking. So they invent a song and a dance to try to explain away the fact that a dozen critiquers are all coming up with the same overall criticism.

    This is not a reflection on the critiquers, who have taken time out of their days to not only lend fresh eyes, but explain what it is they saw about the work, but a reflection on the person who is being critiqued.

    Let's face it, everyone here can think of someone on the workshop who just could not accept criticism. Instead of just thanking their critiquers, or, better yet, trying to implement the advice, they had to justify themselves and make a big deal.
     
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  12. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    @Tenderiser actually, yes, if you said the tone of the piece isn't working then fine. But don't just change the sentences to a new tone without telling me why or I'll think the person didn't know enough to maintain the tone.

    But I do think you may be confusing tone and voice. My writing shouldn't sound like you, yours shouldn't sound like me. That's voice.
     
  13. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    That's off topic.

    Dude as a non fiction writer, I accept cuts and crit all the time. The newspaper editors I work with don't give you your stuff back at all. They do the edits themselves, their way. But it always sounds like me. That's what I'm talking about here.
     
  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    yeah but you are talking about you - numbers is talking about a larger chunks of the rest of the membership.
     
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  15. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    I get that, Moose, but I'm responding to the topic of the thread here.

    And no matter who you're critiquing, it still should sound like the writer's work, not that of another writer. That's all I'm saying.

    It's a skill everyone who edits or critiques should strive for. Making the piece a better version of that writer. Not ghostwriting it for them. That's a universal editing skill. The voice of the publication, voice of the writer...Somewhere the editor has to match voice or that sentence will stick out and not fit.

    It's as basic an editing skill as SPAG, and takes longer to develop. But we're here to develop skills. So it's not an unusual thing to practice here.
     
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  16. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    It is absolutely true that the best critiques respect the writer's style and try to offer criticism that is complementary. I have definitely said this in the forum and sometimes in the workshop.

    Unfortunately, the majority of pieces in the workshop do not really have a style to edit. That's the problem. The writing is so lacking that it's more about the person being critiqued realizing this, and going back to the drawing board, then it is about the critiquers "getting their critique right."

    There are certainly members on the forum who possess a clear style and you can tell because either half the critiquers love their work, and the other half doesn't (which means it's a style issue and not a skill issue) or all of the critiquers love their work.

    I can even think of some people who had a style I did not like, and I acknowledged that the writing was good, just not my cup of tea, and then moved on.

    Since the writing forum encompasses a wide range of skill levels, we have to be able to know that certain types of critique only apply to people of certain levels.
     
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  17. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    I'm piss poor at critiquing and it makes me uncomfortable to actually critique others. Because, unless it's something obvious... who da fuck i'm I to say they did something wrong, not to mention my own personal preferences. I've seen people critique stuff and say how good the setup was or how they were hooked when personally I was bored... so again it's hard for me to say, and it's also one of my fears of accepting online critique. Also to add, except for a few exceptions when it comes to grammar and tenses, I received a few critiques along time ago that just turned my work into someone else's, because their way of writing is different from mine, not saying mine is right and they are wrong, just different, which is one of the great parts of writing.


    One of my biggest fears of being critiqued, and something I had noticed in some earlier WS postings I did, but removed. (they are gone, don't go looking). I got some useful tips, but like I said above, did it stop becoming my work? Like Dynamic description telling was good advice, and of course my tenses. Though my original WS was only to confirm that the first scene needed to be removed, and how to better start the story, and how to better write descriptions.

    Everyone has a style, just matter of it's one you liked or not. Not fully sure what you mean by the "Writing is Lacking", forgive my ignorance here. As for Critiques, as I said I don't critique because who da fuck i'm I to say if you did it write or wrong. I can just give you how I felt about your story, if it reads fine... it reads fine to me. But I have fucked up grammar. so there you go. :p

    It's Big Soft Moose, isn't it?
     
  18. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Once again, this is the difference between us. I'm fine with a critiquer telling me they don't like my voice and giving me an example of what they would change. I don't mind if a critiquer says they didn't like my voice and doesn't expand on why. I'm just grateful they read my piece and gave me feedback.

    That's exactly what some of us want from a critique. :) I want to know if you enjoyed it, if you'd carry on reading, if something bugged you, if something confused you, if you like the characters... You don't need to suggest solutions or even dig deep to work out why you had a certain reaction. I don't mind if you cover all of my questions or just one.

    "I didn't like the main character." > valuable critique to me
    "I enjoyed this and would read on." > valuable critique to me
    20 paragraphs about every aspect of my work and why it did or didn't work for the reader > valuable critique for me
    "Your mom" > not valuable critique to me.
     
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  19. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    There we can agree on, for the most part. Hey man, if you can help me find the structural problems, I don't care if you like it or not. I don't need applause. I don't trust applause.

    To be honest, I don't care if the critiquer doesn't have anything positive to say about my work. That's not why I'm there. If I've posted in the Workshop, I know it needs work, and probably quite a lot of it. I just can't figure out how to fix it. But I understand a lot of writers don't feel that way and need to hear something positive.
     
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  20. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    This is actually an excellent point, a good way for at least myself to look at critiques as well.

    I need to learn this.
     
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  21. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    [QUOTE="Tenderiser, post: 1664500, member: 71576"I want to know if you enjoyed it, if you'd carry on reading, if something bugged you, if something confused you, if you like the characters... You don't need to suggest solutions or even dig deep to work out why you had a certain reaction. I don't mind if you cover all of my questions or just one.

    "I didn't like the main character." > valuable critique to me
    "I enjoyed this and would read on." > valuable critique to me
    20 paragraphs about every aspect of my work and why it did or didn't work for the reader > valuable critique for me
    "Your mom" > not valuable critique to me.[/QUOTE]

    On all these things, we agree @Tenderiser . When I was talking about the "why"s I was speaking specifically about sentence structure and cuts. The things you list above I can often figure out without much hand holding. But structure? Why this cut not that? Those are things I have trouble understanding, because they relate to my dyslexia, so the "whys" are important.

    As I said, I can build a sentence from the ground up, but reverse engineering one is nearly impossible for me. But give the whys and I'll keep working to build a sentence that works from what you tell me.

    edited because i said with instead of without
     
  22. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I'll meet you halfway. Most people here have at least a kernel of style, so it's a matter of whether the critiquer is willing to make the gargantuan effort (or is even capable) of massaging that out of the person he is critiquing. As I have already stated, there were times I have admitted something was good, but not my thing, so it's not just a matter of style.
     
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  23. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    Fair enough, I said everyone has a style, doesn't mean said style is great... but again, who am I to determine that. :) . I am one of the few people in this world who hates Halo and finds it to be boring and mind numbing. :p .

    Of course.
     
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  24. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Wanna know how I learned it? Living / working in Hollywood. In L.A. speak, if someone says they "love your work" but nothing else, it means they're just saying something as a conversation opener and they probably hate it. So it's an empty sentence to me that means nothing.

    You have to listen for what comes next. If they're taking the time to point out the issues with it? That means they see the potential in it and are rooting for you to get it right.

    If they don't, it means your work isn't worth improving so they don't bother trying to help you out.

    Edit: If they like it as is, which never happens, but we'll pretend it does, they gush on and on and on and name every little part they loved.
     
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  25. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    To be brutally honest, this sounds a lot like the Workshop here on WF, which is one of the reasons I gave up on it. That, and not being able to trust if a critique is good or bad... but then again I guess I don't want ass kissing either. :p . Honestly, the only things I cared about at that time where, How to do descriptions, grammar, tenses and if the first scene could be better implemented. And since a lot of the stuff in the first scene is repeated in the second scene anyways, I just went with he second scene which starts with the MMC. Thankfully, no one has kissed my ass, not worth kissing. :p . But I have had it kicked once or twice here. :p

    I'll keep this in mind, I use to live in Pasadena, so i'm aware of the Hollywood mentality. :p . But not experienced like you have.

    Edit: BTW... I am now going to look at every positive critique in a whole new way now... :p . More positive, the more I doubt it's sincerity. :p
     
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