Dealing with ideas

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Daniel, Jul 7, 2006.

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  1. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    I second @CoyoteKing 's question.
     
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  2. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Hopefully, she sticks with the popular guy and helps him become a good person by smiling a lot and using a touch of fairy magic.
     
  3. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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  4. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Thirded.
     
  5. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I vote 'have her kill the boyfriend'.
     
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  6. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Make it an epic tragedy. :)
     
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  7. lawrencelpy

    lawrencelpy Member

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    Do you think the ideas (the plot, the theme, the characterisation, the messages) are more important, or the language (the elegance of sentences, the word choices, the craft of language)?
     
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  8. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    Both. A good idea means nothing if it's poorly executed, and the writing can be the most elegant words ever strung together, but if the idea sucks... it still sucks.
     
  9. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Ideally both. A good plot or concept is key, but having the skills to effectively convey that to the reader through your sentence and word choice is also fairly paramount. No matter how good your plot is, you're not going to be able to communicate your point to the reader if you don't have the language skills to do so. Alternatively, beautiful sentences with no substance are like dandelion luff in the sunlight or the morning fog, pretty to look at, but ultimately worthless, entirely insubstantial, and unlikely to last.
     
  10. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    If I have to choose, and assuming that the language portion of this choice is above and beyond mere correct use of language, syntax, spelling, etc., then I side with ideas. One of my favorite writers, Octavia Butler, has a rather "plain Jane" style in her crafting of sentences, but the ideas she explores and the questions she asks are profound.
     
  11. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    This is how I feel - it's essential that the ideas are communicated in a way that readers can understand and enjoy reading about, but I don't care much about elegance of prose. I actively avoid things that are written in a literary or flowery way. Just give me the story straight up and I'm a happy camper.
     
  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Precisely. To draw another example, the genious of Stephen Hawking is not that he's the smartest man on the planet (I've read several rather sour grapeish articles extolling how many scientists are smarter than him) but instead his ability to take an utterly esoteric field of science and make it approachable and engageable to the Every-Person.
     
  13. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    This is the exact same reason I like Brian Greene and Neil DeGrasse Tyson.
     
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  14. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Yeah, it's a tough call. A great idea can be ruined by poor or just uninteresting presentation. My family are big readers and I don't know how many times we've been talking about books and said things like, "I liked the idea but it was so boring." But I think something can still be an enjoyable read if it's well-written even if the topic is overdone, so I might have to come down on the side of language, in concept - but in practice I'm more likely to slog through an unenjoyable style and forget I'm even reading something with a tired idea.
     
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  15. GlitterRain7

    GlitterRain7 Galaxy Girl Contributor

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    Both are definitely very important, but I'm going to have to side with ideas. The way I see it, if you have a good idea, adding great language will only make it better, and even if you don't add great language the book may still be tolerable. Having great language and no idea...well, you just have a jumble of nice words.
     
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  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Language absolutely has to be good enough--below a certain standard of language, it barely matters how good the ideas are.

    But once you get the language up to "pretty good" then the ideas become the most important area for improvement.

    Except, language is the tool for expressing ideas. So whether or not the language is elegant or pretty, it has to be pretty darn good for expressing the ideas.
     
  17. IDontDrinkKoolaid

    IDontDrinkKoolaid Member

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    There is such a thing as writing for writing's sake; lets not forget poetry.

    Writing, storytelling and imagination are three separate skills, and they are all important in writing a captivating storybook. On the low end, I'd say it's easier to keep someone reading with nice writing and storytelling, than with a nice story alone.
     
  18. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I think language and wording matter the most until you reach a certain level. Even then, I do believe the writing can trump the idea. I know none of us really want to believe that. We want to think if our idea is good enough it will carry the story. And sometimes it does if you have a great editor who sees your vision. But no editor is going to fork over a ton of money unless you can clearly do something they can't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Poetry has meaning, too.
     
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  20. crappycabbage

    crappycabbage Member

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    This was a really hard question to answer. At first I was ready to shout out "ideas". But then when I read some of the answers already posted I realised, that's not true.

    I recently read a book which didn't have a story I cared for, or characters I liked, but the author pulled me through 800 pages because of her clear and engaging writing style. That was very interesting to me and I'm still trying to suss out exactly how she did it. :D I don't care for "beautiful" language in a book, but it has to be engaging. If it's not, then the best idea in the world won't help me finish a novel. But I've also put down a lot of books where the style was okay, but the characters were annoying, so...
     
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  21. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I'll read further into a book with good language and bad plot, than I will the other way around. However, I will stop reading the book and forget about it.

    If the prose is all messed up, I won't get through the first three pages.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  22. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    CW writing has a different appeal, you see them on Amazon, like Outsider Art.
     
  23. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    Either. I enjoy books by authors who are great storytellers, but whose prose is ordinary and also books by those with ordinary plots and ideas, but who can write up a storm.
     
  24. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    I am kinda both based on genre really. Though language is a major factor
    as to whether I will read it or pitch it out. Some have written something
    fair enough to keep me engaged, but then throw the baby out with the
    bath water when it comes to the other critical factors of story telling just
    having a concept fall apart. Plot-holes and deus ex machina really kill a
    story when they occur. Other times it can be the language being far over
    reaching to the point it does not fit with story at all, as if the author has
    to use a vocabulary heavy prose to complicate simple concepts, and just
    make a story 'sophisticated' word salad. Of course you get the ones that
    want to simply bash an idea over your head so much that you think that
    they really have less a story and more a personal rhetoric piece of propaganda.
    And the final one would be poor execution of a concept, where you can
    clearly see the author had no clue about what they were writing to begin
    with. Thus they show a lack of knowledge on what they are portraying due
    to little or no research, while making the point of the story fall apart at the
    seams.

    So from application to execution, there are just some that shouldn't write
    what they do, anymore than I should be able to teach advanced trig. :)
    (And I shouldn't, since I can barely use Algebra).
     
  25. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I would consider this to be language.
     

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