Describing/Characterizing POC

So where are you bringing all these people together, and in what context? I see you have plenty of ethnic diversity going on. So was your initial worry the fact that you were projecting any of them as being from a disadvantaged background?

The Writing Excuses panel recently did a podcast on "Writing the Other." You might find it helpful. For some reason I can't get that site to load just now, so I can't attach the link. But if I remember right, the guest author was a white South African who learned to write about her black SA fellow-citizens, and to write them well. One of my take-aways was that all our societies are becoming so heterogeneous that it may be our duty to include those who are not like ourselves in our fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. And not having lived their experience is no excuse.

Or I may have gotten that from Brandon Sanderson's lecture, at 54:45.

 

I'll have to watch this video later, it looks very good from the first few minutes. None of my other characters are disadvantaged except for my MC. My initial worry was that people would see my MC, an illiterate indigenous person, and view it as my clumsy stereotype of indigenous people. That they would view it as me, being an uneducated, white, racist author, writing a character that I felt fit in with my stereotypical vision of what indigenous people are like. Based on some of the comments here, I think my fears are justified. Obviously I don't feel that way about indigenous people, but I don't want hurt the feelings of indigenous people and make them feel like I (or other authors) perceive them in that way. Which is why I came to the forum to ask for advice on how I can fix this.

 

If your Australian character has to be indigenous in order to really be from Australia, then shouldn't your American character be indigenous in order to really be from America?

I don't think that's a huge issue, but I think it is an example of the sort of thing you may accidentally gloss over and that other people will pick up on if this work is published.

Generally, though I think it's most important to make sure there's internal logic to your characters. If your Aboriginal character is uneducated and poor, what effects will this have had on him? How has he gotten the opportunity to go to this race in the first place, and how will his lack of education influence his ability to learn the racing skills he'll need?

And does it have to be this character who's poor and uneducated? Couldn't he be an educated Aboriginal and one of the other characters could be poor and uneducated? A character for whom those characteristics wouldn't seem to kick into racist stereotypes?

 

Ooh, that's a very good point.

One of the conflicts in the story is that, when he's alone and upset, and not really sure where to turn, a manager comes to him with a racing contract to come work for her, promising all sorts of rewards (some of which pertain to his goals) if he signs. She promises him that it's only a year long contract, and because he's distraught and feeling hopeless, he signs it rather than has someone come read it for him. There follows a legal battle that's essential to the narrative of the story. So his illiteracy actually does pertain to the story, and I can't really take it out. What I can take out is his ethnicity, but then I run into that awkward feeling of having my two MCs be white and everyone else being relegated to that dreaded "non-white sidekick" role. He's in the race because it's discovered that he's the child of a famous racer, and people want to snatch him up to race as part of their team for more publicity. Again, I'd like to stress that although he is uneducated, he's not stupid. You don't necessarily have to read in order to drive a car, and he picks it up quickly because he's an intelligent person, just an intelligent person who hasn't had every opportunity in life.

I could add in another indigenous character that is well educated, but as someone's already pointed out on the thread, wouldn't that be adding in an indigenous person "just because"? I've already been accused of changing his race just because it fit some inner personal agenda (not really sure what that would be), so wouldn't it be problematic to add in another character just to prove that I'm not stereotyping people? Not trying to be combative on the subject, this is just speculative. It wouldn't be hard to add in more people, there's a huge roster of racers.

 

Well, or this guy could be from a non-white ethnicity that doesn't have stereotypes about being poor and uneducated... there are more people from Asia in Australia than there are indigenous Australians...

 

I'm not really sure what you want from me here, all of my characters who are non-white ethnicities are well educated, can read, are intelligent, well-rounded, and have their own goals and ideals. I'm just concerned that this one non-white character who happens to be uneducated and can't read, but is still well-rounded and has his own goals and ideals, will perhaps come off as racist or stereotypical of indigenous people. Like I said, he can be a different ethnicity, I'm fine with changing it. My two main goals for him having Aboriginal characteristics was that I've seen pictures of Aboriginal people with russet/red-brown hair (a trait I decided early on that I wanted him to have, regardless of race), and the fact that everyone was representative of their regions, and I wanted my MC to reflect that as well.

 

I don't think it will come off as racist if he has other strong qualities and virtues.

 

I don't think it will come off as racist if he has other strong qualities and virtues, but I don't know why red/brown hair is important.

 

As someone who illustrates my own stories, the appearance of my characters matters to me it's why i put so much thought into describing their appearance or at least getting it down in my head. the red hair is just a personal preference that's been in the back of my head forever, it feels weird to change it.

 

I guess I'm not sure what you want from us, either...

Weren't you asking for opinions/reactions? That's what I gave you. What were you looking for?

 

That's cool!

 

I guess what I'm asking is why it would be less offensive if he were still illiterate but a different, non-white ethnicity.

 

Because I think there's a negative stereotype about Aboriginals being uneducated and impoverished that I don't think exists for some other minority groups.

 

Ah, I see.

 

Horrifically, my brother has a bunch of 'man buddies' who used to get together in Australia to go fishing once a year or so, some of them are Australian and some are not.

And the garbage they say about Aboriginal people is so disgusting, and so horrible, I am ashamed to be related to him. There are many people with really disgusting attitudes toward Aboriginals.

Actually, Anais Rose, I think that the stereotypes about most minority groups are pretty much the same the world over.

And...many Aboriginals ARE impoverished and uneducated. But prejudice, racism, hatred, those say far, far worse things about people than they are impoverished and uneducated. It says it's their own fault they're impoverished/uneducated, that they don't aspire to anything better, are all violent, subhuman, worthless and should be exterminated. And there's generally at least a few comments tossed in there about wanting white women and all that nonsense too. Racism, prejudice, these are not just opinions or ideas. They're ugly ideas based on ignorance and hate.

 

I think what I was confused about with what BayView was saying was that I'm not aware of any minority group that hasn't been at one point stereotyped as violent or stupid or savage. No one is free from ethnic prejudices and hate. It's so important to be conscious of those views as a writer, to make sure you're not unconsciously perpetuating ignorant ideas. I agree with your sentiment but I'm not really sure what you're trying to say as far as what I should do?

 

No, not everyone has ethnic prejudices and hate. That is not true.

What am I saying to do? Deal with prejudice directly in your book, don't dodge around and try to avoid it or pretend it doesn't exist. Take a clear stand for human rights, against prejudice.

In the book I'm just finishing up the main character suffers again and again from prejudice. The book takes a stand on it. It's wrong.

 

Aside from the race/ethnicity issues, if you haven't, you ought to read up on what Mecca is like when the haj isn't on. Your story is a race, that's a religious ceremony, but both of them experience large population swells for a short time every year.

 

interesting! i always wondered what that kind of influx of people would have on an economy, and what it would mean long-term.

 

I'm still trying to find out more about your overall setting, and I still say setting is crucial to what you want to do. You're concerned that "adding in another character just to prove I'm not stereotyping people" would be problematic. But if all this takes place in Sydney, say, or Melbourne, it would be perfectly natural to have other aboriginal Australians there, as well as Anglo-Australians, Asian Aussies (lots of Japanese people move down there, I understand), ex-pat Americans, whatever, all naturally present for your MC to work off against. Middle class, rich, poor, educated, uneducated--- they'd be there because they belonged there. But without any idea of your larger setting, what you propose comes off to me like the enthusiasm of the kid in the bulk candy store who goes, "Oooh, I'll have one of those, and one of those, and gimme a couple of those, and please, ma'am, put them all in this bag for me." Your characters strike me as having nothing in common except that you chose them.

You could make your idea work, if you keep your MC in an environment where he'd likely be found. But I keep getting the feeling that this is all happening outside of "Australia," because you seem to be saying it would be forced to have even one other aboriginal character around. Is that what you had in mind? Because if you "magically" transport him to race overseas on the international level, and if this is the first time anyone has offered him a contract, and if it's only because he's the offspring of a famous racer, I'm not going to believe it. I'm going to think you picked his ethnicity because you thought it would be cool. But if the action takes place on some "Australian" racing circuit where he'd naturally be found when he's still struggling and green, what you propose would be reasonable. But then you'd have a lot of other aboriginals around as well. For that matter, the manager offering him the contract could be an aborigine herself, which is why he trusts her.

The trials of an illiterate person trying to cope in a literate society can be a powerful one. You can show how he compensates, how his compensation methods fall tragically short, and how he fights through it to triumph in the end. But a person in that condition can be of any ethnicity. Whatever the background of your MC, make sure he's where he is because he got himself there, not there because you the author arbitrarily picked him up and put him into that place.

Oh, yeah. Why not just have it be Australia and get it over with? It'd be fun to research, and I think people would be interested to read about racing Down Under.

 

Well it does take place in Australia, which is why he's there. He only gets picked up because he's trying to get to the races for his own private reasons (that I won't delve into because it takes too long to explain), and while trying to convince someone to let him in, he lets it slip that he's the son of a famous racer. Naturally the news spreads and he's being hounded by people that want to take him on (even if you don't win the races, if you have enough publicity, you still win in your own way, with commercial spots and suchlike; there's a big payout to being famous. So having him be their racer would get them that publicity). So he is likely to be found there. Again, there are other Aboriginal characters around, his mother and brother are both central characters. It wouldn't be hard to make his manager Aboriginal as well, as there's very little information about her yet in the story. And actually, it could be really integral to her character, because even if she does end up screwing him over a bit, it could be kind of an inspiration to him, like "oh wow look at her, she's just like me, and she's worked her way up to the top and is incredibly successful. I can do that too".

I will admit, I am a bit of a kid in a candy store; I illustrate my own stuff, so the opportunity to draw and write a cast of diverse people with amazingly different appearances is very attractive. This is the first story where I can get away with having this much diversity without it appearing forced, as people from all over the world travel to this place to compete against each other, so logically I can have people from Korea, Egypt, Cuba, etc. and it would still never be forced because they're all there to race. Which is incredibly exciting! It's been a joy to illustrate so far! I'm loving looking up different people groups and fashions and incorporating regional appearances and designs into what everyone's wearing and looking like. My other stories don't have this level of culture clash, as most of them take place in my home state or nearby.

 

Okay, fine. So these people are there because they're integral to the milieu, like fruit and nuts in a fruitcake (if you'll pardon the figure of speech).

I'm not really believing the idea that he'd mean big bucks for promoters just because he's a famous racer's kid, if he's not a great driver himself. Dale Earnhardt, Sr., had a boy named Kerry by his first wife, but you don't see his picture on the Wheaties box. A name isn't enough for endorsements; you have to be a proven winner.

When you said the money people glom onto him when he tries to get "in," do you mean "in" as "in qualify to be in this race," or "in" as "be let into the stands to watch the races"? The former, I hope. But that wouldn't be a matter of convincing anybody, it would be a matter of making the qualifying times. I could see a scene where he's trying to qualify, and is just a fraction of a second under the requirement (maybe his car isn't in the best condition and holds him back). But the manager you speak of sees his daring as a driver, recognizes how exciting he is to watch, and when she finds out whose kid he is, well, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., stand aside.

What I'm saying is that I don't see this happening at a top race that would draw drivers from all over the world just to compete in it then go home, which is the picture I got from what you just wrote. The initial encounter between your MC driver and this manager would more likely take place at a lower, regional level. You could have your international types there, too, but they'd be guys (and some girls) who followed that circuit all the time, also trying to work their way up, and maybe feeling a little jealous at your MC's lucky break. Save the big-draw race for later.

And again, if this is a bush league circuit you'd likely have more aborigines around, not just your MC and his family. Mechanics, groundskeepers, waitresses, all the kind of workers a car racing track would need.

 

Well, "at one point" meaning ever? Like, in the fourteenth century or something? Maybe, I'm not sure.

But in the current milieu, I think there are certain clumps of stereotypes that are unfairly assigned to different groups. For example, I don't think East Asians have the ignorant and uneducated stereotype assigned to them (more the opposite).

And, honestly--"No one is free from ethnic prejudices and hate"? Maybe not completely free, but there are certainly groups that are suffering a lot more than others and some that are skating along as the default, with very little attention paid to their ethnic makeup. And I think that's what it's important to be conscious of as a writer, to be sure you're not unconsciously perpetuating ignorant ideas.

ETA: Possibly you meant no one is free of holding prejudices and hate rather than free of suffering from prejudices and hate. In that case I would agree that most people do hold some prejudices (although I don't think most of us are actually hateful about it). And I think you're right that, as writers, we need to be conscious of these in order to avoid perpetuating them. But then I'm not sure why you're clinging so strongly to this stereotypical Aboriginal character, since I think his inclusion would perpetuate the prejudices you know we need to guard against.

 

I think the why of why I'm "clinging" is because I created my character design, and I love my character design, and I in no way intended my character design to be racist, and I think out of reflexive defense (you know, the "What?? I'm not like that! How could I do that??") I'm coming across as defensive and stubborn. I am stubborn, just not about this.
I am considering other options carefully at this point, because at this juncture I'm not sure that it's the best path for me to go through with this, and as much as I would like to make him East Asian, as there are apparently a big population of East Asian people in Australia, I'm not comfortable with that either. Kind of the running joke in this story is his height, and I'm reeeaally not comfortable with introducing an East Asian character into the story with a "haha you're short!!" joke.

 

I understand the reluctance to adapt once you've got your heart set on something.

But I don't really understand why you're sensitive about East Asian stereotypes but not Aboriginal ones...