It was more of an observation than advice. I suppose you could interpret it as "You're in good company."
@deadrats (and @OurJud), reading this thread and thinking about critiques I've received, I'm wondering if the key is for you the writer to have a good idea of what kind of story you're writing and where you want it to go before submitting for critique. If you know what your basic Idea is (with a capital I), when feedback comes in you can send it through the filter of "What would be best for this story?" and not be pulled in ten different directions. Meaning, keep your ears tuned to those critiquers who grasp what you're trying to achieve and whose feedback can help you do it. As for the rest, smile politely and move on. For example, say your story Idea requires that your protagonist (let's call him Harvey) be the kind of guy who is very laid back, who takes life as it comes, who notices the beauty in nature and thinks in terms of textures and colors and who would definitely spend time in describing to himself how things strike him. You've written him some lovely passages full of contemplation and description, and now you're submitting your work for critique. Useful Feedback: "You've established Harvey as a stop-and-smell-the-roses kind of guy. But here in this scene he's turned into Action Man and he's trampling all over the gladioli. He wouldn't do that. It feels like you're making him do something out of character because your plot needs some action at this point." Even More Useful Feedback: "You've got your deep thinker Harvey suddenly going into shoot first and ask questions later mode. I can see that your plot demands he take action now. I'd believe that he might do it as written if you'd hinted before that there are some situations that would spur him to it. But right now he doesn't come off as real." Useless Feedback: "This Harvey guy is too much of a wimp. Nobody wants to read about somebody like that. Make him into Action Man." Even More Useless Feedback: "I would never act like this Harvey character. Rewrite him to act like me." (Yeah, I've gotten feedback that amounted to that. For real.) Of course, this calls for wisdom. Even useless feedback has its uses. If the plot you have in mind would chew up and spit out a Harvey, and more than one or two critiquers are mentioning that, you really do need to listen to the "useless" feedback and rethink the plot or the character. But if your goal is to show how someone like Harvey can triumph against all odds, ignore what that critiquer says and keep writing. Keeping in mind your story's basic Idea when receiving feedback can be difficult if you're a pantser/discovery writer. You may not have discovered yet what you're trying to do! There's a Writing Excuses podcast where the panelists advise discovery writers to submit only finished works for critique and keep their works in progress to themselves. That way they can apply the principles they've picked up in critique of the finished work to the WIP without the current work ending up as the literary equivalent of a hoarder's house. I'd say the guiding principle is this: Applying critique should serve the story, not the critiquers' egos--- or our own.
Something else. I may be wrong, but what I'm picking up from this post is that you may be over-invested in the feelings of the critiquers, and not invested enough in your story. They're "trying to help and invest time and energy." "People were really thorough with their critiques." "It feels a little wrong to have gotten so much feedback . . . to go back to what I started with." "Some of them . . . are exceptional writers." "How can I just ignore what they said?" And so on. It's all about pleasing these dear, talented people who spent so much effort critiquing your work and if you don't take all their advice you must be a Terrible, Insensitive Person. Am I right? But they aren't God in your story. You are. In the end, you determine what you want it to be. In writing this, I'm preaching to myself. I've had five beta-readers so far, and Number Five turned out to be the most severe. The trouble is, she's one of my best friends. But many of her comments call into question what I'm trying to do in my novel. "I don't believe your MMC would really do that." "I think your FMC really overreacted in that scene there." "All that relationship stuff makes the story drag. Cut it down." But these things are key to the plot and key to how the characters behave and develop--- and my best friend didn't see that. Oh, heavens, I didn't even communicate with her. I must be a failure as a writer. Talk about despair, disappointment, and dismay! The novel in question is too far along to rewrite it to please this particular critiquer. And what of the others who loved the story and thought the things she objects to are fine? But her remarks have drowned out their voices. Gosh, maybe it's all crap and too broken to fix. "Cut this out," she says. "Delete this other." Hellsbells, why don't I delete the whole damn book? I sat on her critique document for a good three or four weeks, thinking, thinking, thinking, and only yesterday did I open it and my manuscript together and begin to apply what I can use and what I can't. The complicated thing is knowing what to say to her should she ask about something I couldn't use at all. It's easy to say The Work Is Supreme. In a way, it's also easy (for me) ultimately to adhere to that and keep writing. But that doesn't make it any less hard to feel I'm disappointing a wonderful person who worked so hard critiquing my novel. But, @deadrats, I'd say that's what you have to steel yourself to do. And you know what? There's a good chance that those critiquers won't care one way or the other what you do. They have their own work to deal with.
Yes, I was addressing you. However, when your manuscript is ready for publication (in your opinion), it might not be a good idea to send it away just like that to agents. We tend to become blind to our own mistakes, after all.
I get about half of my work critiqued before I submit it. If I have a conscious question about something, or am unsure of a specific point or something, I ask for feedback. But other stuff? I know what I was trying to do, I know I did it--I'm done. We're writing to different markets, so there's no guarantee that what works for me will work for you or that what works for me wouldn't work even better if I changed something. But I certainly don't think it's absolutely necessary to get pre-editor critiques in all cases. And you've been trying things this way for a while without success--might not hurt to try a different approach?
Stuff I consider needs mentioning in a proper critique: • SPAG • Stuff that's unclear (as you say we're sometime too close or involved to spot these things) • Inconsistencies • Inaccuracies • Implausibilities (to a certain extent) But so often in this thread I see people simply giving their opinions - and I'm as much at fault as anyone. I've given critiques and this is exactly what I've done. But in truth, who are we to tell a writer they shouldn't have spent a whole page describing someone eating a meal or some other mundane activity? That this conversation goes on for too long? Or that they should lose the paragraph describing the weather because the weather isn't relevant to the plot? All we're saying when we do this is: 'This is how I would do it if I were writing it.'
When I'm doing it, I'm saying, "This is what didn't work for me as a reader." And that's what I want people to be saying when they critique my work because, you know, I'm writing it to be read.
But doesn't this depend on our ambitions and targets? If you want to be the next Dan Brown, Tom Clancy or J K Rowling, then I suppose you have a point. But I've no interest in appealing to that market. I think there's a fine line between being a good writer and selling out.
Selling means selling out? Interesting. If you're only writing for yourself then sure, don't bother with critique. If you are, then you need to know what readers think of your work.
Yep, but the when and why is up to debate. It depends on the Alpha/Beta who reads, each of them has specific strength and gives a different level of insight. There are several specifics to consider when giving out something for critique: - Length of piece: it sometimes is not adviceable to wait for the whole thing to be finished, especially if you are unsure there may be logical related mistakes involved. Also, when I receive small critiqued chunks I can go over them fairly quickly, think about which kind of problems are in there, and adjust my word choices, characters, storyline, whatsnot accordingly (or even rewrite if the critique is serious enough). It is a learning curve and so far I have faired fairly well. - Think about what you want to get out of a critique: Some Alphas focus on characterisation, some on logic, some on SPAGs and style and such. Give selectively. Of course, that depends on having a good pool, but making connections and not being too impatient helps here. I have hung around since last October and I have found people with which I can connect. Even friends - yes, I mean you! *goes off to get her own cider* And in case I have not said it *taps foot* I am waiting for a chapter, or even a WIP? Well?? With regard to what is a useful critique, maybe @Wreybies would give us his pep-talk? I try to do right by you
As someone who has recently gotten a great critique privately, and no it was NOT positive feedback, I can say that for me it's knowing what is good and what is bad. Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability to know that. But it helps to be absolutely clear on what you are trying to achieve in your story. It also helps to know where you think your weaknesses are. If you have no idea on stuff like that, then you're probably clueless and then blindly changing things. You will then end up with a vision that is not yours, that you will then own and have no idea what do with. Also, do not assume just because someone is looked up to here for ANY reason, or that you might look up to them, that they are the god of story. I'd never cede that kind of creative faith or belief in another. I'm the writer of my story, not some third party! Just have faith in your original vision and work from there. Selectively take onboard things that facilitate your original goal. Have faith in you the reader too. Unless you don't read, in which case that is a shame and possibly one of your issues. So don't be so disheartened. I hope you find your stories again. Public forums have their place, but it must be balanced by finding trusted private ones. I just would not rely on uncontrolled feedback in the workshop for my serious works. My babies are precious to me, and they can only be looked after by people I have carefully vetted for a purpose. Also, one last thing... and I'm sure my posty is not going to be popular, but if you are trying to please the majority on THIS FORUM, then you were always going to be screwed... lol Edit: I am sorry forum... I am having an evil Linny day...
Nooo, that's not what I said. Of course I'd like to be published, but let's just say I've no interest in getting on the 'best sellers' list, alongside all the other books showing the silhouette of a man in the middle of a gunsight on the cover. I don't want to go down the whole 'nobody understands my writing' path, but I can't imagine my current WiP would go down very well at all on here.
A useful critique is one that you can use. It can help you correct your SPaG. It can help you recognize where you assumed that the reader knew what was in your head, so you didn't need to mention that the MC's carrying a gun. It can point out that you've used the word encapsulate 3 times in 2 paragraphs. It can point out logical inconsistencies. It can suggest an alternate wording that is clearer than what you wrote. None of this is an instruction manual. Even the alternate wording is merely a suggestion; reword that to your own style - if you think it's a valid point. None of it MUST BE DONE.
What are you talking about?! I'm probably losing context here, but it appears you are telling people how they should be critiquing. Oh for goodnessakes, you need to get over yourself. There is not such thing as a 'proper critique'. People can critique how they wish on a public forum. The author can certainly ask people what they wish to focus on, but people do not have to listen. I have asked and people did not listen, I'm not going to crucify them for it. They took time out of their lives to assist. If you want a specific critique that you feel the need to tell others how to do it, then I think there was a guy here who accepts payment. Alternatively, do not put your stuff up in the workshop if you need to bitch about how people should do a proper critique. Sometimes the expectation of people on public forums are unbelievable. Geez...
Can you find a community where it would go down well? I'm not trying to push you away from here , but if you can't find any community that would be interested in it, that seems to be something that would affect your chances of being published. Like - who's your audience? Where do they hang out? Would they want to do some reading?
Who are we? We're readers. I don't write for other writers, I write for readers. So if I'm looking for feedback, it's reader feedback I want. What did the reader like or not like, where was the reader engrossed or bored, etc. I know it's subjective. It's not opinion, really, because they're reporting the facts of their own reactions, but I know it's just one person's reaction. That's fine. That's what I want.
As painful as it is, I think its essential to have people critique your work, because they can point out obvious glitches you've failed to notice. Contradictions, unbelievable situations or maybe they could suggest a different direction for one of your characters that you never even thought of. It would always be up to you, the writer, to choose what should stay or be revised. You are in control. This is after all, your story. As long as the feedback is done in a constructive way, and you are keeping an open mind and being honest with yourself...don't give up. It is horrible when a critique points out the negatives in something you've written but this is the part of the learning process, I feel.
No, I'm simply saying there's an Authority Syndrome going on for a lot of people. Someone suggests they lose the diner scene because it doesn't drive the plot, so they make a note to delete it. Then half an hour later someone posts that the diner scene is their favourite part. Who do they go with? The one who thought it pointless or the one who loved it? Or, do they trust themselves and keep it because they like it? And let's not forget the other reason I've stopped submitting for critique, which I've mentioned many times already, that being because it dilutes my desire for the project. On that point no one can call me.
I wouldn't even bother giving it a name for a syndrome. I just call it NOISE and one should expect it when posting on the Internet. I say embrace it and ignore noise that sounds crap. If you cannot filter it out then stay the heck away. People have been invited to have an opinion, any opinion as far as I'm concerned. The author can do what they want, people are not going to care. You did the right thing too. Do not post. You do not have the authority to tell people on how they should spend their time. I'm glad that's cleared up.
If it were me, I would go with the choice that best spoke to the reason I wrote the dinner scene. Funny thing is, I actually have a dinner scene in one of my WIPs that was where the story started and is a bit of an homage to the dinner-at-Brideshead scene from Brideshead Revisited. I might also simply go a middle road and look to see how many people said I should drop the scene. If there's a general consensus that the scene feels pointless, then I've not made the point I wanted to with that scene and it may need to be reworked rather than dropped if I felt it was important. If at least a few people twigged what that scene was meant to be, then it may just need a little fine-tuning to bring it into focus for the rest. No, there is no answer for this, to be sure. But what is also set in stone is that the critique process is what it is, be it in an internet forum or in an academic setting. One does have to learn to filter out that which isn't addressing one's intent and engage that which is.
It's perplexing but also fascinating when you get contradictory critiques; two people read the same words and come away with polar opposite reactions. I find it kind of comforting, because it's proof that no author in the world can please everybody. A bad review or bad feedback doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.
The first article I ever got published gathered such a reaction; one letter asking for more like this, please; another one accusing me of seducing the youth of our great nation into the bottomless pit of sodomy...well, something like that!
Oh, don't mind me @OurJud... I'm just having a go at you for 'sounding' like you have the 'Authority Syndrome' on proper critiques. Let's move on as it's not worth discussing further.
