Do you plot everything or let it flow?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Hublocker, Apr 9, 2018.

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  1. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    It's funny, but what changed and developed the most for me as I wrote my novel were the secondary characters. Not only did their personalities develop much differently from what I'd originally envisioned, but so did their roles in the story. Some became more important and some less so.

    One of the secondaries turned out to be an important POV character. He just sprang to life as I wrote him. He was originally intended simply to be eyes and ears, but he turned into a player as well, and had a lot of influence on how the story's antagonist was viewed. He just sprang into my head and developed a personality as I wrote him. That was fun. He's one of my favourite characters, as a result. Also one of the most ambivalent ones, in terms of good/bad. I would NEVER have 'plotted' him in there beforehand. He just happened. I would love to write a spin-off book featuring him, but ...I can't. He's ...errr ...no longer with us.

    I think if you create your characters as real people, rather than simply as agents who enable the plot to happen, you'll be in for some very happy surprises. These surprises generally turn out to enrich your plot, rather than derail it. Don't be afraid of following your instincts, when it comes to human nature. Yes, okay, you might need to rewrite bits to accomodate these changes, but because it makes for a richer story, you truly won't mind.
     
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  2. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    I tend to do that afterwards. When I go back and clean up the story, I think about what purpose a scene serves, if any, and either revise it or delete it if it doesn't. I wouldn't have put a scene in if it I didn't think it was needed when I wrote it, but sometimes when I move scenes around and revise them I realize I no longer need a later scene, or that I need to rewrite it to do something else.
     
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  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I've thought before that, "OK, it's dandy that that works for jannert; it won't work for me."

    But I realized that when I start a scene, my question is, "What's the emotion?" It's not that straightforward--often I have an image of two characters head to head and instead say, "Ooh! Emotion!" But the question is effectively asked and answered.

    But it suddenly occurs to me that the two strategies aren't totally different. Because emotion requires stakes. And stakes require conflict/plot. And the conflict/plot elements generally grow out of other scenes.

    So...I'm thinking it may not be as far apart as I thought.
     
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  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Everybody has ways of approaching writing, don't they? I have never tried the 'emotion' thing, but I think it might work. "What is the emotion?" I guess my approach focuses more on what I want the reader to be thinking and feeling at that point in the story rather than what the characters are thinking and feeling, but whatever leads you to what you need, eh?
     
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  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    That's actually how I came up with this method. When I was reading over a scene I'd written and it seemed to wander off track, I would then ask myself 'what did I expect this scene to accomplish?' After doing this a few times while reviewing what I'd already written, I then began doing it at the start of writing every new scene as well. I found that it was easier to stay on track if I knew why that scene was important before I started writing it. I didn't think too far ahead—and occasionally I had to go back and revise the approach anyway—but it sure helped.
     
  6. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    My version is, "Where is the conflict in this scene?" But yeah, I think they're all getting at the same thing.
     
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  7. HelenL100

    HelenL100 New Member

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    As a relative newbie to novel writing, I'm so pleased and relieved to read this. Writing is a pleasurable pastime to me precisely because I have no idea how it will go. It is fun to just let your imagination go wild. Usually I run out of story at about 25,000 words, and that can be very frustrating, but if I had it all planned out in advance, if it was a methodical thing, that would seem like work and I would hate it. Whether I would actually end up with a better story at the end of it, well maybe I would, but we'll never know for sure because I just can't do it. So, thank you Edward Grant for making me think it's ok to stick with my way of doing things :)
     
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  8. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Of course it's okay to stick to your way of doing things - writing is meant to be fun! But... what are your goals? Are you happy to keep stalling at 25k words and starting another project? That's equally fine. I often start games and finish them, and it doesn't bother me because the fun is in the doing and not the completion. If you want to finish a novel, though... wouldn't it be worth trying something different?
     
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  9. talltale

    talltale Member

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    Attempting to plot the entire story beforehand can quickly lead to burn out.

    I would advise keeping it simple in the beginning.

    • Pick a general story idea.
    • Break it down into three parts: Beginning, climax, resolution.
    • Work on the climax first: What general message do you want the story to tell?
    • Your other parts are basically extensions of the middle/climax
    Not a perfect way but at least it simplifies the process a bit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  10. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    For some writers.

    Attempting to write a story without plotting it out beforehand can lead to an unholy mess of nonsensical crap that nobody wants to read.

    For some writers.
     
  11. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    Yes. This is why everyone should try both and see which works best for them. But if you start with two characters with conflicting goals who can't just run away, then write down what they do, you end up with a story... of some kind.
     
  12. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Who cares? If I'm having a great time writing it, well, that's what I'm in it for. I might not finish the first draft with something others want to read, but I will wind up with a big pile of ore that contains a lot of gold. I mine it and purify it in subsequent drafts.

    It's all very pantsy. :supersmile: :write::write::write:
     
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  13. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Because other writers aren't just in it for fun and/or want to produce a good draft off the bat.
     
  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    EOTD there's not much in it

    plotters take ages to meticulously plan and plot then write a decent draft which needs only a few rounds of editting

    pantsers use the time not taken plotting and planning to write a slightly less decent draft which needs one more round of editing than the plotters ... total time elapsed works out about the same
     
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  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I suspect that's just two of a gazillion possible methods, and that pantsers, in particular, pants in many ways.

    For example, I would call myself a "polished pantser"--I write scenes to a fairly high level of polish (at least, high when measured against my ability) but I write them in a pantser context, because I don't actually know if they'll end up usable. This means that I'm in the enviable position of investing a WHOLE LOT OF HOURS into writing that I may end up throwing away. :)

    But it's the only method that's ever kept me writing, so I'm sticking with it for a while longer.
     
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  16. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    yeah doubtless - the pants vs plot argument is as daft as MS vs Apple.... just write, which ever way works for you

    tbh A plotter could spend ages on a plot that they then change out of all recognition ( I did that with Rapax - I had a really detailed plot which bore virtually no resemblance to the finished product .... that was the last time I plotted)
     
  17. Odile_Blud

    Odile_Blud Active Member

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    I'm usually I guess what they call a "plantser" (I literally just discovered this word a few days ago, and now I'm seeing it all the time). I just did my first full blown outline last Saturday, and I didn't like it.

    So I will go back to plantsing.
     
  18. SkinnyPuppy

    SkinnyPuppy Contributor Contributor

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    I plot, but sometimes it very pleasantly derails. When I follow the train off of the tracks it almost always leads to one hell of an amazing place.
     
  19. HelenL100

    HelenL100 New Member

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    You're totally right as well. In a way I do need a kick up the backside and to be a little bit more disciplined. I finished the first two books really quickly, no wall at 25k words. I also had a lot less time then, I was working full time. Now I seem to procrastinate, maybe because I know I do have the time, there's no real pressure anymore. Hmmm, this is exactly the reason I wanted to join an online forum, so I could get some insight into my writing. Thank you for your thoughts, all of them are useful and noted :)
     
  20. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I have basic ideas that usually go off the rails.
    Seriously.
    And I plan way more for my novels than for my short stories.
    Short stories start with one image and take off from that germ. For Only Ten it stemmed from a girl on roller-skates used as a metaphor for the limbo of her
    parents divorce and a 'weirdo' in the park trying to get her off the park path.
    My novels -- I plan them but something always comes up to take me off the path especially my conventional endings. Plot usually comes from my characters not
    getting what they want, them changing what they want, them getting what they want and it's not the dream they imagined, or having what they've won so hard taken away from them -- conflict -- lots of conflict -- and 'fate.'

    Jannert -- I do the same thing think over what do I want my scenes to do or what kind of emotion do I want them to have. But a lot of times I wait for the second draft to sort it out because the first draft is such a purge and I know a lot of scenes won't make the cut.
     
  21. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    If you're writing the story for you, do whatever makes you happy. If you expect other people to want to read you story, how much fun you have is irrelevant. It's how much fun other people have that matters.
     
  22. Moon

    Moon Contributor Contributor

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    I tend toward having the overreaching plot set in stone, but the journey to that point tends to evolve as I write. All roads lead to the same end.
     
  23. Subject24

    Subject24 Member

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    I'm sortve new at story writing, but so far with the stories I have written I've developed at sort of processional order to getting it all down.

    For me, I want the basic structure of the story up before I start to fill it all in.
    That includes a
    plotline- storymapping, where the story is starting and ending, & what points are going to get it with there with the effects I want to come with the story.
    Characters- I come up with a initial cast of people that the story will be centered on. Character plotting, getting a clear picture of what the main characters are going look like, be like, act like. Get full feeling of who each individual character so I can better represent them in the story.
    Settings - know where the story is going to be, and what effect that is going to have on the characters of the story and the story itself.
    Story informational - Basically detailing any fictional or nonfictional structure that I have in the story. For example alot of my stories involve secret organizations that do certain things. Before I write, I make sure to get down everything that that organization does, why it was formed, and other stuff.
    If there's also nonfiction things that I need readily available to look at for reference, then I wrote down all of that too. I'm writing about something scif-fi. I make sure to write down all the details I need to know about space science that's relevant to the story.

    All of those things together usually come out to be pretty detailed. At least a few pages of material for just the short stories.

    But with all of it thought of and drawn up, I can get a clearer picture of what to write.
     
  24. Masterful Misanthrope

    Masterful Misanthrope New Member

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    Vague idea -> flow. I find that stories are more compelling the more realistic they are, and I find that organic, flowing storylines tend to be more based on experiences, history, and legends. In real life, not everything is resolved, misunderstandings are just as powerful and more common than malignance.
     
  25. RahnyJae

    RahnyJae Member

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    When I first come up with an idea, I let it flow. Write out whatever scenes I day dreamed that put the idea in my head and then 'talk it out' with myself on paper about the different ways I could turn the idea into a full fledged story. But I've learned the hard way that when it comes time to execute the story, I need outlines and answers to plot points before I write a single scene for the rough draft.

    When I first decided to take writing seriously, I ended up spending a year and a half writing 300+ pages of an ever changing plot. All it amounted to was a hodgepodge of scenes and weakly developed concepts from several different story ideas. It's like I was trying to tell every story I could think of all at once, trying to have it all connect and span over like five books and twenty characters. Thought I was being ambitious and inventive, but really I was just day dreaming and brainstorming on paper and putting 'Chapter #' at the top of each session. It was a big ol' mess.

    I realized that and grieved for months over all the wasted time (which just wasted more time. lol :rolleyes:) Then after some more stumbling and bumbling with some ideas, I took one of them and changed up my approach. I wrote an outline for the beginning, middle, and end in paragraph-long bullet points - kind of summary style. Fleshed the bullet points out into chapters, which only took 3 months; the fastest I've ever finished a story. It took me longer - like another 9 months - to polish those chapters, fine tune and flesh out some of the plot, but as of two weeks ago, I got it done. I have my first book of 82, 00o odd words completed and almost ready to be published. And now that I have a method that works for me, my aim is to finish Book 2 in half the time.
     

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