Do you take writing seriously? I mean, what does it mean to you? A lot of people want to be writers—no—they want to be considered a writer. They want to tell people they write fantasy or sci fi, or historical war stories or whatever so they can look like they’re talented and deep. But in reality they don’t want to lift a finger or a pen to be a writer. They don’t want to go to school for it. They don’t want to finish a story—they only want to sketch ideas. They don’t read books to speak of. They don’t accept editing suggestions much less critiques. They don’t study fiction writing; instead they just wing it. They love to read about how ordinary people broke into the game and made millions. Everyone loves the Stephen King story. Of course, they ignore that he earned a B.Sc. in English and a teaching certificate for High School in the state of Main before he “broke into the game.” Not to mention finishing a novel when he was eighteen. He “broke into the game" with Carrie when he was 27. How many years of writing outside the game was that? They feel perfectly comfortable writing in text-speak: i can ba wrtr jst lik king did They actually consider fan fiction a noble calling. After all, why invent characters when there are perfectly good ones on TV? All I’m griping about is that I have seen two things emerge since the old school of writing ended back in the 1970’s: The first is that in order to increase the number of readers buying their books, publishers began the natural selection process of dumbing down literature. What has evolved, however, are Barnes and Nobles full of novels that aren’t worth the pulp paper they’re printed on. Seriously: read The Exorcist by William Blatty and compare it to any recent horror novel you can find on the shelves today. Compare the reading grade level of the works. The same is true for all the genres. The second event was the home computer, which lead to word processing, the internet, and e-publishing. Both of these events together have produced zillions of people who want in the game. They read a crappy novel and say, “Hey, if that writer can do it, why can’t I?” And technically they can. They have the tools. The problem is that the dumbing down has lead to books so stupid no thinking person will read them. Which means ultimately a zillion books are published to people too dumb to read books—or at least too simple to want to. So now, the publishing industry is collapsing and a zillion writers are writing to no one. No one takes writing seriously anymore, because there’s no reason to invest the effort. Everything is falling down; the art form is ending. Am I wrong? By all means, show me how I am, and give me some hope.
To answer you're question, "No", I personally don't really take writing that seriously. In fact, I think some people who do, are more focused on "publishing" then the actual writing part. And its kind of easy to get caught up in the success or imagining "I published something." For me, the story and character(s) are far more important. I agree. I've bought several novels that sounded interesting, but I could never finish them, gave them away or just tossed them. And also being a Star Wars fan, there are tons of EU novels that are just really stupid, the characters do the unliklyest things, the dialogue is more earth-bound then Star Wars. And many of the authors don't get their facts straight, which only complicats what is or isn't possible in the Star Wars Universe. I Even picked up an EU Stargate book, the characters were SO off, I tossed it from being so angry! In todays age, pretty much anything can get published. It's rather sad. It's not like the old times where an authors work was rejected many times. The Internet has opened a lot more oportunities. Especially with the self-publishing. It doesn't really matter if your work is good, you can easily do it. In a sense, yes, it should be taken seriously, but then in another, that's all people think about is "I want to publish and have my name in the world/in the paper/on the internet...etc" I write because I enjoy creating new worlds and characters, not because I want to publish or make money. Will I later? I have no idea.
Firstly... please stop with the "you must go to an upscale college or you will fail at writing" lectures, please! It's as bad as the "artists" attending upscale universities with whom I type online. Guess what? I've never been in any college-grade art courses, and my paintings are at least twice as good as many of theirs. It's called devotion and endless hours of practice. The issue isn't lack of motivation on my part; it's because I'm sixteen, fyi. My writing is still dreadful compared to my painting, but that'll change invariably. Okay, now that my rant is finished... I think it's safe to say that books have gone steeply downhill. Anyone who scribbles on a page can get it published now. Last year, a fellow student of mine with all the intelligence that can be expected of a nineteen year-old "supersenior" published a book. This. Should. Not. Happen. Some great books are still written, and honestly a lot of mediocre books were published before, but in general the percentage of real devoted writers, to the chaff, has gone down.
No I don't take 'writing' seriously. I take 'storytelling' seriously. I have taken countless subjects at degree level over the years for fun. My writing improves every week, after all my stories I believe are good enough to deserve that. Also whilst I will listen to all editing suggestions, accept my punctuation is the weakest thing about the stories (my grammar and spelling is good). I am not going to accept an editing suggestion that interferes with or changes the voice of the narrator. As I would hope anyone who felt I had done the same about their work would ignore me. I have no intention of going back to university for writing - too old to take anything and become an academic realistically. What is the point ??? I also find some of the attitudes from writing courses and literature degrees are all about stifling a good story. Not sure what is wrong with fan fiction - some of my favourite books are the Hardy Boys they come from a syndicate. I read everything and have read very widely. At seven I was reading Jane Eyre, Little Women and Oliver alongside the Faraway Tree, and Noddy. I still have that attitude, last week I regretted yet again looking at the most recent Booker Prize winner, this week because I am busy have been reading Winnie the Witch and the Gruffalo. I will read anything from the likes of Plato, Marlowe, Shakespeare, through to Alex Sanchez, Lian Hearne etc I love a good story and to be honest don't care how it is written. My current story is not fan fiction, but contains a lot of characters I haven't made up myself (Merlin, Plato, Joan of Arc, Boudicca, Robin Hood, Lewis Carroll, Godiva, Anne Boleyn, Archimedes, Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, Marie Curie, Agatha Christie, Arthur Conan Doyle, William Shakespeare and five others), the story is original but thet aren't. I write everyday, I am working on my punctuation. My writing is a lot better than it was 10 months ago when I started. I am also learning about how to market a book what goes into it. I am a very good public speaker, I volunteered at the local library for story time to get practice at reading out loud etc. I am forming a network of other writers in my area. Whilst I have yet to sell my completed book seriously it has had positive feedback from a couple of agents. For 10 months since I started writing it I am pleased with that.
Well, I hope some day I become a published writer, because I can finally have an oportunity to tell people (and they don't even have to know who I am) what I think about and stuff. So when I write, I take it seriously and then go to bed, hoping that I can come up with better images of the story. But the sad thing is that I lost the copies of my story, and my computer is broken, so I can't get a backup copy until it gets fixed. My character synopsis is down the drain as I don't have any copies on my C drive, instead, it's in my USB drive that I lost.
Yes, the death of literature is upon us... just as it's been every generation since the first! You don't think there were shallow, baseless best-sellers in other generations and eras of writing? Try looking at best-seller lists from the early 20th century and tell me how many of those you recognize as the books we consider literature today and still read. (quick answer: not very many). The fact is, there have always been the Twilight's of the world, just like there have always been egotistical blowhards pointing out how bad such books are and proclaiming the death of the novel, literature, literary journals, etc. Such is literary-life. And while I agree with your sentiments at times, the whole education thing has little to do with it. I'm in/around a pretty good program, and I'll tell you what, there are just as many low-motivation idiots as anywhere. It's almost worse because they think their degree or getting an A in a fiction class will actually matter. Don't get me wrongly,though, the amount of /facepalming I do on a daily basis being exposed to writers and books has developed callouses on my hand and head. I agree the internet has been as much bane as boon to all things writerly. The biggest problem is that everyone gets equal footing (or the illusion of if) to express their opinions on writing. It's a problem, imo, that on most writing sites there is no determination of authority. There are too many Indians, not enough chiefs, and meanwhile every Indian thinks they may as well be the chief. But, the one benefit of the classroom environment is authority. You may not agree with the international best-seller and winner of multiple awards leading the workshop or discussions, but you at least know HE is the authority and it's your job to listen with your ears and not your mouth. Not that all professors are always right (they're not, and the best will admit to that much) nor all writing students somehow better than those that aren't in a university writing program (they're not, and the best will admit to that much). But there's a least order, which is the first step toward making any sense out of this whole writing thing. But yeah, nice little rant you had going there in the OP. No offense, but it seemed just as full of it as those you target. Imo the only thing worse than writers who don't seem to take it seriously, are those that spend their time very seriously pointing out how others just aren't serious enough. I think both sides of that debate need to probably spend more time with their faces in a book, and less in a mirror or magnifying glass judging other writers.
In all my experience, I've never once met or seen a professor or writing course/program that was "all about stifling a good story." The biggest nonsense-assumption by people who've never been in a writing program is that the program is somehow trying to drain all the life out of a writer and their ideas and stories. Far from it. The emphasis is often on craft, and because of that the 'story' sometimes becomes secondary, but that doesn't mean anyone is actively (or even incidentally) trying to stifle good story telling. This might come as a huge surprise to people on all sides of the aisles with huge, glaring chips on their shoulders, but writing programs and courses are usually like any other writing community. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. The main difference I've noticed between formal and informal writing groups/communities is that in the formal, there is at least authoritative hierarchies, so it's not so much madness where everyone things their ability to form an opinion gives it credence and lends them the right to share it. In a good writing class/program, if you say something idiotic you're called on it and at least forced to prove it... which doesn't happen so much in informal writing communities where there's usually no established authority figure to do that sort of thing, for better or worse.
Firstly I said 'some' by no means did I say 'all.' Precisely when the story becomes secondary to the craft you get what these days we call literary fiction, which if it is your thing great, but it isn't mine I find 90% of it dull and would be horrified if my work was seen that way. When writing a book you should do what is right for that story - feeling free to ignore the authority when it does not work. Was it yourself that said you had lost the ability to enjoy reading a good story for entertainment because of your education?
Because all literary fiction ignores story? Get a grip. And really, lets not start genre bashing, as it does little good and usually just makes people sound ignorant and bias. Here's a bit of a news flash: most writing programs are involved in the STUDY of craft, not the production of publishable fiction. And story is concentrated on, after craft, because one's mastery of craft often dictates their ability to deliver a good story. "Do what is right for the story" is only easy advice because it means nothing to someone actually studying and improve their craft. And in most writing programs, doing what is right for the story is exactly what's being studied. Unless you think learning what's right, when, is some kind of passive thing that just springs naturally from some vague place of luck deep inside a writer? I haven't lost the ability to enjoy reading a good story for entertainment, so much as don't find it useful to waste my time with such endeavors. I read to study. I'll pick that back up when I'm trying to become a professional reader, though, I swear. And that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a well-crafted, story executed on a high level. My point was that I don't just sit down with some page-turning easily-forgettable, but fun weekend novel. And yes, almost everything I read, I read two or three times, which shockingly makes many 'writers' I know aghast. Another 'writer' I know was also shocked when I mentioned I'd read one of my 11 page stories at least a hundred times. I'm trying to perfect my craft, and it takes time and dedication to study, not fun weekend-reads.
Yeah, you said 'some' as an easy-out to being (what is imo) direspectful and dishonest. It's like if I were to say some fantasy writers terrible and the genre sucks because of it and they shouldn't be considered real writers and ugh fantasy!!11 Reading between the lines, one would pick up on the fact that such comments probably aren't about the 'some' some much as having an axe to grind. You say 'some' of the attitudes in writing courses and literature degrees are all about doing something that in my years of academia have never seen. Sure, sometimes it happens incidentally (though even then rarely), but no writing course, degree or program I've ever seen has ever been 'all about' stifling a good story. It basically sounds like antagonistic, axe-grinding rhetoric to me. Then again, my particular program is pretty good, with two professors in the top 10 Amazon books of the year and another with a collection coming out in March that is already getting rave reviews and endorsements from heavy hitters in the literary world. So sure, maybe there's some evil, anti-good-story program out there twirling it's villain mustache as it tries to actively find a way to tie good-stories to the train tracks. I've just never seen it or heard about that sort of thing from anyone other than those that obviously have an axe to grind because their published college professor simply didn't see the brilliance of their work and offer them an immediate tenure at the program teaching future writers.
To be honest I found most of your OP negative and it seems like your implying that when it comes to writing these days nobody does anything and brags about everything. Very surprised to see this post and it seems you yourself are fishing for reasons in replies to give you cause to justfy your own writing, what an odd post,
Considering that writing fiction consists of playing pretend, how could I take it seriously? My stories are serious enough, given that I am a serious person--but no, I'm not going to school to become a writer, no I haven't finished every story I've sought out to write, and yes I do "wing it" from time to time. For my part, I see no reason to wrinkle my nose at "non-serious" writers. Why should writing mean exactly the same thing to you as it does to the rest of the world? What about the guy who just wants to write coherent letters to his grandmother? Or the girl who wants to tell that boy at school how she feels without having it sound tacky, like a text message? For you, writing may be a "serious" career, but for many of us, it is merely a way of expressing ourselves when we don't find our other enterprises quite as fulfilling.
Again I did not say all and I said personally. I do not generally like reading literary fiction. I read all genres. Yeah I like some - Cloud Atlas is great. However most I find spends too much time trying to be something. Nor am I saying you have to dislike it - or not want to write it. However it is certainly not where my heart lies when I am writing - would rather do Mills and Boons. Part of learning and perfecting any craft surely is knowing when to ignore your education. However yes the best stories are as much about gut as head. But that is true with most things. With any academic subject you should be taught how to think for yourself and apply it in a given situation. However most writing programmes are teaching the craft of writing and not that of storytelling. The latter does not require an ability to write. You yourself will say that things that contribute towards stories are outdated. However those methods work to produce a great story that can be enjoy. Just like my archaeology professors could not prepare me for every situation I would come across in my work - the writing teachers can not teach how to approach every story. There is nothing wrong with that it is your way and your devotion. However I am not about to give up my love of a good book just to be a better writer. What is wrong, writing with the intention to entertain? Stories should educate and entertain. Anyone who can communicate a story in such a way that people want to read it are good writers. For me Shakespeare is a fun weekend read along with many literary greats. If you don't practice your ability to sit and be transported with a good story, to forget where you are, then that will be lost. That is fine if your goal is one of a well crafted book rather than an entrancing story. Personally I would rather produce a less well written book that engrosses someone from beginning to end to the point where they don't want to put it down. I want to give someone what I have received from many authors in the past.
That's a pretty negative first post of this thread. I think writing is just keeping up with what audiences want and making it more accessible - it's like why we're often advised to write simply a lot because readers don't want to have to look up every word in the dictionary when a four letter word will do the job. But I do wonder why some books are published for various reasons. As for publishing online, such as e-books, it's again for the fact that audiences are able to access books easier, what with the technology. As for whether I take writing seriously, it depends what you mean by 'seriously'. Pushing myself to be published? That I'm trying to perfect the craft constantly? I'm taking it seriously as far as I write daily, and I don't know what I'd do without writing. I'm doing a university degree in Creative Writing - you don't need to take a course to become a successful writer - to improve my writing, so in that respect I guess I'm taking it seriously. But then if I was really taking it seriously, I would probably be trying more to get my writing out there more actively and get experience in the creative industries. But then again, I don't feel an urgency to yet because I'm in the middle of a degree, and you know, I have plenty of time to get my writing published.
Do I take writing seriously? I do. I think about it all the time and when I'm not writing, I'm planning or researching or dreaming about it. There's nothing wrong with sketching out some ideas - look at JKR. It took her five years to plan out the HP series. I think that the issue is more people being patient and not being publish-monsters. People assume that once they get an idea they can just write it - not the case (wish it were though!) And there is nothing wrong with fan fiction. Fan fiction helps you become a better writer. Just because they are not your characters does not mean you can't better your skills by writing about them in different scenarios. It builds problem solving and descriptive writing.
Ed, I like your post, and I agree with much of it. I don't think the internet dumbed down contemporary fiction, though. All it did was the same thing it did with every other kind of information - put a lot more of it out there. It created huge amounts of digitalized info-bits that one must wade through to find quality. As an analogy, I point to 500-channel cable television, which diluted quality television programming among hundreds of channels instead of the 2-7 channels we used to have in VHF. But there is about the same amount of high quality stuff as before. No, I think what devalued contemporary fiction was the corporate consolidation and amalgamation of publishing houses. It made profit the one and only consideration for any piece of writing and made it much more difficult for an editor to nurture and emerging young talent or to take a chance on an edgy new kind of fiction. I do think it is possible to be self-educated on the topic of writing. I went to college, but not for creative writing. What I learned about the structure of writing - grammar, spelling, structure, punctuation, etc - I learned in elementary school and high school, and I think what I learned has thus far served me well. Once I decided I wanted to pursue writing seriously, I worked very hard to learn the craft by reading and re-reading literary works and novels, and by reading materials out there on the craft of writing. My self-study was undertaken as an adult. I would not recommend it to someone of school age, and I would always say that reaching for direction from a reliable source is a good thing to do. What I would never recommend, and I think this is the heart of Ed's issue, is that a young, amateur writer just assume that because he can put a sentence together he is automatically a writer. As for fan fiction, I only recently discovered what it is. I can see it for a child, or a writer just starting out. I can possibly see it as a developmental device in a very limited circumstance, to focus on one specific aspect of writing, like plot development. But as a normal practice, I would think it would do more to hinder a writer's growth than assist it.
Perhaps that's it. Perhaps it has become harder to find the quality work. Well, that's a fact for sure. I have a theory that it will only get worse. I believe in the near future all novels will be published in the James Patterson method. That is a boardroom will come up with an idea, it will be simultaneously developed by marketing experts and psychologists and eventually ghost writers, and then it will be "authored" by a front man. Music has already gone that way. For that reason, I believe the novel as a form of art is probably dead. And these corporate books, of course, will already have involvment from movie production companies. They will come out ahead of the movie, be marketed and sold and act primarily as a warm up for the movie. Of course I could be wrong, but I'd sure like to know how any publisher can make a profit on new authors today doing anything else. Who could ever justify taking a new author and putting all the publishing resources behind that author to make them big? I don't see how it can work, economically. Writing is an academic endeavor. One could make a very adequate writing degree out of a liberal arts associate degree from a junior college. That's really not too much to ask of someone who truly considers fiction to be their art form. I'm not going to bang on this drum too much, because it flies in the face of the fantasy that a person can be an uneducated boob and still take the literary world by storm. Granted, there are no state licenses required to be a writer, so there is no degree required to be a writer. But here's a fact I think we all know: you aren't going to go to high school and earn C's and spend all your other waking moments "gaming" and watching TV and smoking dope with your friends and then turn around and write a great novel, novella, or short story. Writing is an academic endeavor; it requires work, discipline, study, research, critical thinking, and creativity. Those things are typically developed in school, not on Play Station. I think it's a gross violation of the spirit of copyright law, a capitulation of originality, a dolt's crutch, and a shameful thing to admit to doing...but that's me.
Nope, a lot of people don't know that. Why? Because they either are doing those things and want to believe it's enough, or because they see how past eras of writing it was all about 'the story' and people that weren't 'trained' could succeed just fine by pouring their hearts out and telling a good yarn. These days, more and more, increasing exponentially so, writers are expected to be master craftsman on top of having the ability to tell an engaging story. The industry is overflowing with people submitting their manuscripts and trying to catch a break, and if one isn't working hard to master ever aspect of writing, they aren't going to rise to the top of the pile in most cases because there will be someone else that will. Granted, there's always still the Stephanie Meyer's sort of stories where some random broad has a dream, jots it down, and makes it big. Planning for that isn't wise, though, as Meyer herself couldn't even have planned for it. So, what's left is for us all to try to master all aspects of writing to give ourselves the best chance of making it in the industry. Buuuut, instead people make excuses up and down excusing their poor writing habits or decisions, justifying their decision to not read (much less study fiction), etc. The internet has caused a huge boom to these sorts of 'I dream of being a writer' type people that are stuck dreaming, not acting, because it's easier to be validated or find advice/encouragement that one wants to hear. There are similar problems within creative writing academia too though, and the huge amount of MFA programs that have developed the last few decades aren't helping, and are creating the same flood of manuscripts. Basically, as almost always happens, the only reason to notice a trend and blame one group involved in that trend is because of personal biases. All trends in writing happen on both sides of the make-believe fence that has been drawn (often between so-called literary writers and so-called genre writers, or formally educated vs. informally). It happens on both sides though, just manifests slightly different.
Not dead, I'd say, but the priest has definitely been by to say a few choice Latin words. As long as imprints such as Penguin Classics are kept alive, the art form lives and has a chance to thrive once more. Perhaps the internet will be instrumental in its revival. Writing is indeed an academic endeavor, and you are right about the associate's degree. But an associate's degree is usually earned by someone still quite young - 19 or 20. Not only is that still very young to know what you are going to do for the rest of your life, it is also too early to have had a sufficient base of life experience from which to write. Such a person may well have learned the tools and may possess a lively imagination, but there would be much still to be learned. Absolutely no argument there. You know, that's the problem with you - you just don't know how to express an opinion forcefully enough.
I take writing seriously enough to not get bogged down with over-exaggerated guidelines that can smother a good story. I take writing as seriously as I need to.
Is writing an academic endeavor? Yes, but that doesn't mean one has to study it at school. Many of the best writers in history didn't. Also, many (a great many) writers have studied the craft in school and emerged as great virtuosos of prose, but don't have any interesting stories to tell. They get published because of the contacts they made in school and the skills they acquired there, but for all their skill, they don't have the imagination or life experience to give them anything meaningful to say, and their books are very stylish trash. (I know I'm painting with a broad brush here, but my point stands.) This is part of the reason literature is at a low point nowadays. I don't think, as EdwardG does, that the novel is dead - it won't die, the same way rock and disco and punk and rap haven't destroyed classical music. The audience for the serious novel might have shrunk, but it will persist. What we need are writers of skill - whether acquired in college or by diligent independent practice - who have good stories to tell. That will bring the general public back to the serious novel. Make it worthwhile and people will buy it. EdwardG is guilty of the fallacy of false dichotomy, by the way. He seems to think that if you don't study creative writing at school, then you are a mindless video-game addict, an "uneducated boob", in his words. I studied engineering in university, but I have devoted a great deal of time outside of formal classes to the study of fiction, among other things, and my friends consider me anything but an "uneducated boob". There are many, many others like me out there, as well. It's not a choice between "college-trained master writer" and "uneducated boob".
Well, we're not talking about spinning yarns around the campfire. We're talking about the written word. Ghost stories told at slumber parties are one thing, a story written down in publishable quality so anyone can pick it up and read it is altogether different. Right? Good point. "Random broad"? And in a public forum no less. I agree. I would add that even if a person is looking for minimal publication (i.e., their stories posted for free on their website or in forums or contests) they should still strive to master all aspects of writing. Because storytelling is important. Now, on that I must agree. And as one who worked in education prior to my current career path, I don't actually think an English degree or Writing degree is the best degree to have for a writer. I think a broad liberal arts degree with diverse sciences, psychologies, writing (especially English 101, and 102), literature, humanities, communications, even math and criminal justice is a better way to go--so long as the person strives for A's in all his or her classes. Well, I do have a lot of those. I'm actually pretty intollerant in the arts. Good points.
*Sigh* Blame the internet for people dreaming to be whatever and it's just wrong. Anyone with a dream should be encouraged, not defamed and made to feel redundant. The net opened more doors of learning than it did to close them, look further, past your own bias and narrowmindedness and you will see there is much more to the net than dreamers and people who game all the time. What old fashioned poppy-cock-ish-ness is this? Be sensible...
I don't think anyone is blaming the internet itself. It's more a matter of how the internet has been used. It's fine to encourage a dream, but if a person has a dream that is an unrealistic expectation, such as being a successful writer without taking the time and investing the effort to genuinely learn the craft, then one does the dreamer no favors by telling them, "yes, sure, you'll be wonderful".
