I think you have made one of the better arguments so far. The villain really needs to fit the story for him to really make sense. In the Dark Knight they did say some people just like to watch the world burn. The Joker fit that mold perfectly in the movie. And his battle with Batman was basically 'the unstoppable force meets the unmovable object.'
Personally, I think that an evil for the sake of being evil character can be the best sort of villain possible for many works. The problem is that people using this sort of character sometimes assume that it means having less work, and just throw "he's evil" as an explanation. In my (admittedly limited) experience an evil for the sake of being evil character needs more effort put into his creation than a character who has a motive. Portraying pure, unaltered evil is a difficult task that many writers mistake for an easy one. There is a difference between, say, Moriarty and Bowser. Bowser is evil because he is evil, that's about it for his character. Moriarty takes being evil to amazing levels. His evilness is sophisticated, entertaining. So to sum up, an evil character doesn't need a motive to justify his actions. but he does need a good writer.
Well have actually decided my Matriach of Evil wasn't evil - she just created evil and then went mad because of it. Her actions were a commandment based on the need to keep the universe balanced. She is basically the universe's antacid tablet. However I do think it is very scary when the evil in something has no reason.
I would (and not just for the sake of being contrary, I promise) argue that the opposite is true. Rational evil is predictable, boring. You can trace a line from some point in their history to where they are now, connect all the dots perfectly, everything is neat and tidy and predictable and treatable. Evil that springs from nowhere, without any reason, any order, is terrifying because it can't be explained, predicted or treated. Chris Nolan's version of the Joker proves this, I think. That character would've been much less interesting if his motivations and origins were made clear. Instead, he's just this chaotic, malevolent counterweight.
I agree it is something British and Japanese horror do a lot of. The original Ring, or the original Village of the Damned for example for me remain some of the scariest. My sea is the one with no reason its demands must be met or all fails.
I'll have to disagree to that too. Majora from Majora's Mask is a good example too. It all comes down to how you look at it and how it's done.
The Joker has reasons as did Major x3. It is impossible to not have reasons. Joker's reason is crazy time. It is his way. Same with major x 3. No reason is like finding a true anarchist. Impossible. Writers try too hard to be cool and different and end up screwing up.
The Joker's motive is anarchy. His only reason to exist is to counter-balance the good/evil dichotomy. There is no logical, rational reasoning behind his actions, he just does them to cause chaos. And I have no idea what writers trying to be cool has to do with this discussion.
Logical and rational is based on perspective. He believes he's right. Reason. /end. Writer bit has everything to do with this. Some think they can do whatever when Whatevers never worked. Reasons exist. Readers like reasons.
Evil has countless forms. Not every villain has to have a soppy story to justify their misdeeds...in fact, the very definition of ''evil'' will be for the writer to mould.
Have you seen the movie at all? He doesn't think he's right, he thinks he's necessary. He doesn't think in terms of morals or consequences, only in terms of balance, His only motive is to counteract Batman, not because he believes it's the right thing to do (he has no ideology), but because he wants to. There may be some deep, unrevealed psychological reason why, but it's never revealed to the viewer. Instead, we have a villain whose only aim is to antagonise Batman for no apparent reason. You could argue the same for Hannibal Lector in The Silence of the Lambs (ignoring the awful prequel): what viewers respond to is the sense that there is no reason for his evil; he is intelligent, respected, yet undeniably evil. That kind of evil is far more unnerving than the kind of ideological evil that's often seen.
Humans always think they are right. Period. Crazy or not, made up or not...humans do it because they think they're right. Splitting hairs with necessary....it still means right. Necessary = right. His reason for doing anything is to antagonize Batman. You answer your own why does Joker do it. No it's not. Evil for no reason isn't scary at all. It's laughable. I would not fear random evil. Because you can't win. Nothing to fear when winning isn't possible. But with Joker you can beat him. Therefore he's scary. Without being able to be beaten...scare factor falls. If you are captured without any ability to leave---you could careless about what happens, because why should you? You lost. Meaning that they can do whatever and what will you give them? Nothing, because you have nothing to gain. Therefore some people capture loved ones and torture them giving reason for the other captive to speak. Meaning the evil had purpose. Otherwise evil would just keep picking on you without anyone else and get nothing. Anarchist do not exist. They have rules. The Joker has rules...therefore he is not an anarchist. He's a dictator of insanity. He wants things done his way or die. That's not anarchy...that's purpose---his. Insane doesn't negate purpose. You cannot name a character that anyone is afraid of that lacks reason. And, if you think that evil can exist without reason, then you shouldn't be offended when someone says your story lacks reason. Because that should make you happy. Lacking reason is awesome good, apparently. I don't see how that works in publishing or stories...to lack reason, but apparently if that's good for evil it's good for good story telling.
I must say I loved that line Jammer, excellently said. Part of things I think is that we can't fully understand the unreasonable. There have been people, in reality, who were walking down the street and saw someone and said today you die. Then they murdered them. and later another person with the same "reasoning." They were stable mentally, reasonably, but definitely tweaked. When they were finally caught up with the reason, because humans need reasons to understand, was They were there. So you're right, evil has a reason, but by that everything has a reason because somewhere someone has thought of a purpose for everything people do, because it makes us more manageable. again there is no reason to fear it because you can't win. I guess you're right I'd not ever seen it that way. But that also depends on your view of winning. If winning means escape, or reconditioning the person then sure, if winning means apprehending them, then not so. As you say it they would be true anarchists, but anarchists aren't necessarily evil really. Not everyone that falls into the "bad guy" category thinks they're right either. Many mobsters, and gangsters admit to being crooked, perhaps not evil, but crooked and in the wrong. No one admits to being evil, because evil itself Kinda comes from an outsider perspective. Again true. People like reasons for things because they can't comprehend that that lacks reason. It's like entropy in the universe. It is chaos, there is no reason to it, but it exists. We try to find patterns and reasons to make it more manageable for our minds, not because the reasons inherently exist. But! To say a story with a nonsensically evil villain lacks reason isn't always the case. The story can have reason within the other characters, the villain would give it more suspense because the reader doesn't know what is going to happen, because the villain is unpredictable. Look at 28 days later, the rage zombies. Once created they have no reason post survival, there I am putting a reason to them see They just attack what is there and uninfected, another pattern point. Does it make them any less scary? Do you know where they were going to come from next? Do we know why they behave how they do? yes because they were engineered and infected by something. Now we understand them, without we would not. It helps keep us engaged because if we don't understand we turn off and stop paying attention. Not because the story is inherently bad. so can evil be unreasonable, I think so. Will it need more work to be workable, I believe so. Is it necessarily a bad tool to use, I don't think so, but I've been wrong in the past. X
That's when people say wrong time, wrong place. Meaning if it were someone else, they would have suffered the same fate. Just because you can interchange a person and still have the same result doesn't remove purpose. It does show that crazy people who say "I killed them just because" did it to see if they could actually accomplish it. That is purpose. Purpose is really hard to get away from as is reason. It's there. Whether the reason is stupid or nonsensical it still exists. It's not about attribution, because the Joker has his reasons and if you watch the movie you can see them. Just because the script doesn't tel you, doesn't mean it's not there. Heath Ledger didn't feel crazy because he was playing the Joker. He felt crazy because he was the Joker. He embodied a character instead of just played him. Big difference. Winning in a situation that has your life at stake is to escape with your life. Or maybe it has to do with information and you not giving it to them. If there is no other person involved and the evil you face is retarded and doesn't give you much reason as to why you are there, then what do you have to fear? No matter what you do you lose. Therefore you could do whatever and lose your life. Or you can do nothing and lose your life. What are you going to choose? It doesn't matter...therefore why would you be scared? Everyone thinks they are right or they wouldn't bother doing anything at all. By merely waking up you are stating you have a right to live and you are right to live. The crooks do as they do because they believe they have the right to act that way and by controlling the rules within their realm they can tell others how to act. If others fail, they can punish them no matter if it's hypocritical because they make the rules...they are right. And would you post your opinions if you thought they were wrong? People try to find patterns in randomness, but that's not chaos. Chaos does not truly exist. It's a phrase used to describe a feeling of events, but not factual by any means. Zombies want to feed and they will go after any flesh that is good enough to eat. That's all they want. They'll die to get it. Their reasons and purpose may not make much sense to you or anyone else, but it makes all the sense in the world to them and that is all that really matters. Meaning that sense doesn't matter and may not exist, but reason always does. Evil can not make sense, but it'll always have a reason and a purpose. It can even be reasonable, because that's a matter of perspective. You may have been wrong in the past, but if you even thought you were wrong---your post wouldn't exist. You don't look to be wrong, therefore you don't post wrong opinions unless you believe in them enough to post them.
You've obviously never taken a philosophy class and in online forums it's called trolling, but my post was neither. That's not always the purpose. Something snapped and they said today you die. so that person was killed. Purpose, none, reason they were there. The killer had seen many people that day, and the one they killed was a pass in the cosmo's of their mind. Reason, they were there. Se we need a reason to get it. And does that inherently make the person evil? not necessarily. Ledger did a fantastic job acting in that role, but that is what good actor are supposed to do. I didn't terribly like the joker in that film however, I always prefered the joker from the comics before they toned down his insanity and made him crazy about batman. better villain that way. Less reason to things then. Not strictly true, "gotta eat to live, gotta steal to eat, tell ya more about it when I got the time"- Alladin There are those that recognize something they are doing is wrong, but the only way to get something is to do that which is not right even by their morals. It happens alot in the world. And many WWII on the nazi side recognized what was happening was wrong, but to say so was death. To act against it was death, they did the evil acts not because necessarily they believed they were were right but because it was the best course of action for them or their families. Being right is a huge factor in Human behaviour I'll grant you but it is not THE factor, there are many Chaos and uncertainty is the very nature of Entropy, the numerical uncertainty of an outcome. it equates to randomness within the universe. It is Chaos in mathematical formula. But to take an Einsteinian stance, Chaos doesn't exist because we measure order, chaos is not but the lack of order, similar to light and dark, we do not measure darkness, we measure the light that is present, darkness does not exist. And Cold, we measure the heat that is present, Cold does not exist. They are however existent within the universe. Jammer, I've enjoyed our little tete a tete, but it appears we are at an impasse. I think that evil doesn't always have a purpose or a reason, even a nonsensical one. If someone just looks at someone and kills them because they felt like it, I suppose you can call that reason, but it is not motive. "it seemed like a good idea at the time" to me doesn't equate to a purpose or a reason to do something because it carries no weight. Sometimes I do, so I can learn. It's part of life, being wrong. Accepting that is an important part of living. I look forward to our next meeting Jammer. been fun
No, they have actually proven this theory wrong. If a gangster or a serial killer, like Jefry Dommer, believed they were in the right (or didn't know the difference between right and wrong), they would not try to hide their criminal acts. A person that embezzles money from a company knows it is wrong, but they still do it anyway.
ha. Philosophy is more hot air than it is truth. There is a purpose. No one does things randomly. Humans cannot, no matter how hard they try, be random. When they force it, they are doing it to do random instead of be...difference.. Never was Joker without reason. Never. And he didn't just act. He was. Hence why he wanted to take pills. They see it as wrong via the area they live in, not because they think it is. Therefore they thought it was right. If they really saw it as wrong they would have said something. Actions are truth more so than lying German mouths during WWII. You think you're right about that. Right is almost enough. Randomness in universe but not within humans. I don't even think randomness exists period. It only so happens to exist because the smartest people cannot explain certain things...therefore random works. You can think it, but being right wouldn't be where you are. Motive. Because they wanted to show they could. Humans, and no one has proven otherwise, do things for a reason. Always. In general comment. You, as does everyone else, WANT to be right. You accept you can be wrong, but you don't like it.
Was there a REASON Dohmer did what he did other than his own sicko pleasure? A character based on him might be a little flat, but learning the inner workings of such a person would be an interesting read to me. It's that sick - I have to look at the scene of an accident - type of opinion.
I don't know about that. There were things I was really hoping I was going to be wrong about, but when I was right I felt sad, maybe a bit angry too.
