Does Evil Need a Reason?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Elgaisma, Nov 24, 2010.

  1. R-e-n-n-a-t

    R-e-n-n-a-t New Member

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    That idea makes sense, it has a reason.

    What I don't like is when somebody is evil because they're a bad person because they're evil. Yes, evil needs a reason.
     
  2. Pen

    Pen New Member

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    Haven't read all 20 pages of replies, but my two cents are that evil absolutely needs a reason. It could be a very hard to fathom reason, or one that doesn't follow typical lines of thought (it could be slavish adherence to some sort of rule, or an outright delusion) but it can't be internally inconsistent or just done for the hell of it.

    Think of unmotivated evil being to characterisation what "magic that can do anything" is to plot- without a reason, there's no boundary and no prediction as to what the character might do and hence no real characterisation.

    A great example of how not to write anything, but particularly morality is the long-running webcomic Dominic Deegan- the ape responsible does give his cardboard villains reasons, but they are little more than "I would reverse a Transit van over an infant's head for (a) money (b) his being another race (c) the shiggles"- nobody could possibly sympathise with the characters who twirl their moustaches, stroke their beards, and at every turn make the one decision that would spread the most misery to the most people.

    Evildoers need to be able to rationalise their deeds, and at least be able to make a case that what they are doing is right. They might think it right because their flaws blind them to the failings of their stance, or they might think it wrong, but the lesser evil of some purported choice. The "We're not so different" speech is hackneyed by now but it does raise a good point that the lines between tough hero and sympathetic villain are often blurred.
     
  3. Midnight Pete

    Midnight Pete New Member

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    Some evildoers don't bother to rationalize their heinous deeds. Or at least no further than, "I do these horrible things because no one can stop me."
     
  4. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    I think Lucy does know what she is doing is wrong which is why she came up with a reason to justify it to herself. Still don't think her initial acts where those of an evil person, there is a suggestion of slight jealousy over Izanami her sister but they also seem to have got on really well.

    She doesn't even justify the evil as being right or she wouldn't have hidden it for so long - its almost a habit/way of life.
     
  5. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    Examples of what famous works use this idea.
     
  6. Warriorcats

    Warriorcats New Member

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    Yeah it definitely needs a reason, or else there's nothing to be evil about!
     
  7. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Castle Rackrent comes to mind.
     
  8. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    How so?

    And it doesn't seem that famous. Mentioned once in another novel. I did wikepedia it. ha. I never heard of it nor did I read that other novel that mentions it. Neither interest me. :p
     
  9. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    They might not interest you but they are famous important works of literature. The other work that mentions it is the Great Gatsby ... ignoring the slight shock at one of the single most famous pieces of literature being reduced to 'another novel.'

    Most of the antagonists are absentee landlords, they treat the workers badly on their lands because of if anything lack of care - not automatically bad people, don't actively choose evil but the consequences of their behaviour is.
     
  10. ArtWander

    ArtWander New Member

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    To put in my two cents, Evil always has to have some driving force to be believable. Power, fame, fortune, the enjoyment of watching others suffer, etc. Evil can't just be evil for evil's sake; it wouldn't be a convincing villain otherwise.
     
  11. Tesgah

    Tesgah Member

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    Can a being be evil without any reason at all? In my opinion it has to be some sort of supernatural being whose sole purpose is evil for evil's sake. I don't think a human, or any creature of morality, can be reasonless evil. It's always because of something; a lust for power, revenge, hatred, the fact that they enjoy being evil, or to test the limits of their own power/intellect/potential.

    I would say that reasonless evil is very hard to sell.
     
  12. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Well she isn't human. In my book all the universal father's creations are there to balance him. Maybe simply she was created to be evil.

    I guess I may have to wait until she tells me someday looks like she is about the only character to have survived the current story without death or mental illness and will be coming back in the next time travel book.
     
  13. Tesgah

    Tesgah Member

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    If so then she is a being that is evil for evil's sake (not a being of morality). I would say that it can be reason enough, as long as it is properly explained why she was created to be evil. If she is created to be evil, then I take it that she has to be evil, she has no choice?
     
  14. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    That I don't know but you have now got me wondering if she did what the universal father asked of her, until she got a reason for what she was doing and it gained a focus.

    Maybe she is evil because it is the 'right' thing to do. I do think she has a choice her current path shows that clearly. It isn't her justifying the evil - that would make sense of her cursing her bird form (Great Skua) her sister got the (Swan)
     
  15. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    I like doing that. Nothing is great always....time makes certain works become a bit mundane. That's because of movies and TV. Writing had to change with the times as did readers. Making some "classics" not that great because their writing is a bit outdated and lacks in how they write based on current knowledge. I never read either, so I cannot state that either is terrible or that they are fantastic. I do read classics. I do like them. Like Animal Farm and Catch-22 and 1984. Though 1984 was a bit difficult at times to get through.

    But I do not see how they are evil for no reason.

    Even Hitler had a reason and he's one of the most vile humans to ever live.
     
  16. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    Domain.

    Ok, this gives me all the wrong associations!

    I think so too - a character who is evil without reason tends to become just a blind force, not a real character. But in some novels, that kind of evil may have its place.

    Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think Hitler ranks that high on the evil top-list. My votes would go to Hermann Göring (who was an opportunist and, unlike Hitler, didn't seem to have a sincere belief in the nazi ideology), Idi Amin (who tortured people for fun), and other deserving individuals.
     
  17. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    That wasn't the point. He was evil with a purpose.
     
  18. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    LOL it gives you the wrong associations you try being her author.

    I have gone from a dominatrix type character to one that outside of school is acting a bit coquetish and is the source of evil.

    Hence my struggle. It does make sense though she has worked undercover in a position to do a lot of damage. It has given her the opportunity to instill fear in the new Abbot who is nervous of her, and any king who as a crown prince/prince met her as a small child.

    My character really struggles not to be a seven year old when she points a firearm at his lover.
     
  19. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    I guess it all depends on what definition of evil one has.
     
  20. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    What does that mean?
     
  21. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    Some people think evil depends on the intent. Others think actions are evil in themselves. Some people think a misguided person is not really evil, others that their misguided beliefs make them evil.

    In the case of Hitler, his actions were guided by his misguided beliefs on religion and race. He believed racial impurity was against God's will. From Mein Kampf, chapter 11:

     
  22. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    I think actions make someone evil.

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
     
  23. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    So somebody who desperately wants to do good but inadvertently causes horrific consequences is evil?
     
  24. J_Jammer

    J_Jammer Banned

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    Why not?

    If bad people can do good....
     
  25. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    That doesn't make them good people (otherwise they're not bad people doing good, are they?)
     

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