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  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Does Fantasy have rules?

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by ChickenFreak, Nov 1, 2018.

    A thread with the goal of halting the hijack of the colloquialism thread.

    So--does fantasy have rules? Does it have restrictions?

    Of course it does. Every form of fiction has rules. When the author starts, he can choose from an infinity of options, but to have a story, you have to have rules for that story. You don't have to call them rules. You can call them setting. You can call them story scaffolding. But a story has to have some form of internal reality, and it needs to be true to that reality.

    Dorothy Gale doesn't do magic. Sure, Baum could have made her a magic user, but he didn't, because that would have conflicted with the point of his story. Dorothy Gale was an ordinary girl in a magic land. And the Wizard can't just kill anyone with an instant's thought, because if he could, there wouldn't be a quest to kill the witch. You can't have a story without a consistent internal reality.
     
  2. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    Yes.
    Wherein rules are not stated, people will assume it works like the real world, and like the real world in whatever place and time your world resembles most. It's important to establish early on what the major ways your world differs are.
     
  3. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Are you counting living fantasy worlds, like superhero comic book universes? Because those are wildly inconsistent.
     
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  4. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @ChickenFreak

    Ok fine let's dance...

    I have literally zero knowledge of Wizard of Oz beyond having a few glimpses of the movie, so I can only take it as read. However what you described is an actual trope, I believe called the "Gilligan's Island Effect". The cast can never build a ship or actually try to escape the island or else they'd either succeed or die and that means that the show would end. So the fact the Wizard doesn't kill the Witch isn't because the setting has some kind of actual rule, but because if they didn't then the Wizard would win and the movie would end in minutes. That's not a rule it's a plot hole driven by unanswered questions. For example look at Last Jedi, where a central plot point involves Commander Tumblr Post hyperspace ramming the Mega Star Destroyer, which is frankly a brilliantly done scene, but COMPLETELY obliterates the previous movies as the question "why doesn't everyone use this tactic" springs up. Especially since interstellar-capable missiles exist in-universe, and so using this as a weapon would have become the norm if it were possible. So the instant it happens the plot collapses, as does the plot of the SEVEN previous movies.

    This is where the idea of what is a "rule" and what is an element of the setting kicks in. Because again if magic exists, then magic can do virtually anything, and even if only some tiny portion of the population can that tiny portion should either rule the world or be human WMDs. Either way, it would never be "medieval style" or whatever it would evolve into a world so different than ours that it would make Equestria look like downtown L.A...actually that's not a huge difference but you get my point. If, say, the wands from Harry Potter existed then whoever could use them would be superhuman special forces who could summon dragon gods and kill people with a single whisper from a mile away. And that assumes normal humans can't use them--IF that were the case (it's been a while since I read those books I forget if the magic wand is exclusive to Wizards or not) then they would have replaced guns or made them irrelevant by comparison ages ago. And if spells can be cast upon normal people, and we know they can, then warding spells and shielding magic can be used to protect people which, again, would make guns irrelevant...maybe make NUKES irrelevant, since if I recall some of these things can deflect "soul-stealing instant death spells". Couple that with the existence of actual dragons and magical creatures and you'd have a world closer to Warhammer Fantasy than Harry Potter. The moment you apply logic or ACTUAL rules, fantasy advances beyond any set period or timeline. So saying "medieval level" fantasy infers technological and societal norms within a set time period...which is impossible as soon as logic is applied to it since that time period fades in a heartbeat.

    But all of that, ALL of it, has nothing to do with the original idea I was arguing elsewhere, which is "can you have anachronisms in fantasy" and the answer is no, no you cannot. Because anachronism by definition is a mistake in the timeline, meaning something out of place with the period of the setting. If the setting has no actual period then it can't have an anachronism, since there is no set period.
     
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  5. Infel

    Infel Contributor Contributor

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    This is a really interesting question! A really interesting thought experiment, actually.

    What is a 'rule' when it comes to a genre? What's a 'rule' in general? It's something that must be followed, right? Something that has been established, decided on by either an individual or by a group, as being beneficial in some way. A rule is worth adhering too by its nature: it's established on the very basis that 'doing this thing is good for a number of reasons'.

    But what kind of fantasy rules are we talking about? Surely one could make the claim that the author creates a ton of their own rules when they make their universe--so long as those are followed and consistent, those 'rules' are made up on the spot and are hardly rules at all, unless you want to call them personal rules. More like consistencies, maybe? But then there are certain things that are absolutely 'rules' in the sense that breaking them offends and dissuades a majority of readers from reading. Those ought to be followed, or at least broken knowingly and with good reason.

    Truly a question worth pondering!
     
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  6. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    Oh God, thank you, I can go on a rant about superheroes...but I'll hold back. I'll say this though, superhero comics are a FAVORITE genre of mine but one which has barely ever been treated with any kind of realism, or even an attempt. Not rules, not set periods, REALISM. So like, you have Superman, a being who is literally in every respect omnipotent--so why didn't he just snap Lex Luthor's neck? Because the series would end. The Flash can move faster than time, so if he used his powers in ant kind of realistic way, he would be the SECOND COMING. If superhumans existed, the world would change so completely we would be living in a new era of civilization and telling our grandkids about some time immemorial when people used to not have our Everlasting Lord Barry Allen to depend on.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Do they try to be consistent? I'm not so much covering errors or the effort that people put into correcting them. I'm referring more to the fact that there is a thing that can be regarded as an error, rather than a complete and total "anything goes" philosophy.
     
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  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not talking about something that should logically be possible, that the story artificially makes impossible. When Luke can't kill Vader with a snap of his fingers, that's not the Gilligan's Island Effect.

    The wizard doesn't kill the Witch because he doesn't have the power to kill the Witch. Because he's an ordinary carnival guy from Kansas. He's in a world that has magic, but he doesn't have magic.

    I'm saying that a story with absolutely no structured reality is not a story.

    It can do whatever the author of the story says it can. If the author of the story decides that magic is restricted to, say, the ability to magically change the color of goldfish, that's not going to affect the world much.

    Sure, it would. Because the author of the story designed it to allow that. A medieval world in which anyone, or everyone, has the ability to magically change the color of goldfish, remains a medieval world.

    The author makes the rules. But the author generally does make rules.

    Unless the author of the story designs the magical elements of their setting to keep that from happening. And most of them do.

    The author chooses the setting's period. If an author decides that his setting is entirely Victorian England, plus, oh, fairies, then if the author inserts technology that's later than the Victorian era, the author has included an anachronism. And they'll likely want to correct that anachronism.
     
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  9. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @ChickenFreak
    If magic is "restricted" to changing the color of fish, then it has no purpose as a plot element. At that point it becomes irrelevant, at best a background element and at best it's a sardonic parody. And even in comedy stories, that virtually never happens, since even in something like...the Smurfs, magic was shown to be able to show you stuff from far away and teleport people. The author decides what the rules are but if those rules render entire parts of the plot irrelevant then they're stupid, or poorly written, and yes there is a name for that...something's gun. I forgot the term. You introduce a plot element that has no meaning and fades into the background. So yes magic exists but all it does is change fish colors. So it's irrelevant, magic exists but it means nothing, so why even have it there. BUT if you're a good author--like say, the chick who wrote Harry Potter or the guy who wrote LOTR--then the magic actually makes sense, does something. And that is the problem, because if it existed in any way and any kind of logic is applied AT ALL then the entire plot implodes unless that world is utterly different than our own, skill of the author be damned. Star Wars is a more accurate representation of a world with magic than actual High Fantasy.

    George Lucas wrote a more accurate representation of pure fantasy AND sci-fi than most authors ever will be able to, because in his world, magic (The Force) not only has changed the universe in a way that cannot be replicated with technology, but those with The Force can and do basically rule mankind. Be it the Jedi Order or the Emperor or Snoke or the Celestials (in ancient times) or whatever, they rule empires, rule the galaxy, their power is basically untouchable and they have altered reality and the setting in such a way that if it didn't exist their history would have to be rewritten from the ground up. One of the central plot elements of the Celestials and their empire in ancient times was that they possessed the capacity to MOVE STAR SYSTEMS with the power of The Force. They could think hard and move a star system across the galaxy. So basically, there is an actual implication some parts of the galaxy were 'made' by the Celestial Empire. So it may not be a "galaxy far away" it may just be OUR galaxy at some point in the impossibly distant future after the Celestials rearranged things. It's kind of a theory on Star Wars some fans hold, but again, it's closer to what a universe with sorcerers would look like than we see in many fantasy works...

    ...and then Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy held down his universe and raped it then named the baby it gave birth to "Rey". Which is also a theory many Star Wars fans hold to, albeit one more grounded in empirical evidence than simple inferences but whatever.

    And Luke didn't kill Vader because he couldn't. It's established, and demonstrated multiple times, he's weaker than Vader. More so Force users can shield themselves from such attacks, which is why mind tricks don't affect them as much. Again, this is kinda a well-thought out setting so actual empirical evidence and explicit reasoning fits in there.

    ALSO also, the whole "if all you can do is change colors" thing has actually been addressed in comics, and shown to be a useful ability. If you can change the color of ANYTHING then you can change the color of the sky with enough power, and blot out the sun. If it's ONLY fish then it becomes worthless, but if it's change the color of everything then it can be actually very useful. It's a trope too, "What Kind Of Lame Power Is Heart" I believe. Literal quote: "Almost all of the Substitute Heroes qualify in one form or another. Color Kid is perhaps the best example of the trope. He can make things change color. Doesn't sound like much, but during his tenure he turns green kryptonite into (harmless to Superman) blue kryptonite, switches the color of the sky and the ground (confusing fighter pilots), create clouds of "black" to blind opponents (and power up his teammate Night Girl, who loses her powers in daylight), change someone's entire body to match a wall to provide camouflage, and fire day-glo beams that blind and confuse opponents. Turning yellow sunlight into red might instantly de-power any Daxamite or Kryptonian opponent as well."

    So even then it wouldn't be Medieval Times, and the writer can choose to keep it there but realism would change things if in any way applied. Rules are absolutely necessary, obviously, but if rules make no sense when real world logic is applied, it's not a plot structure it's just a plot hole.
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    It feels as if you are unable to comprehend the idea of magic being significant, but having limits. I'm not sure how to make you able to absorb that concept.

    Returning to add: It's as if I explained what matches were, and you said, "But...but...if you can set a piece of paper on fire, you can of course SET THE WHOLE WORLD ON FIRE! IF YOU HAVE MATCHES YOU ARE THE EMPEROR OF THE WORLD!"

    But...no. You just have matches. Mighty handy. But not infinite power. There's zero reason why there can't be "matches" level magic.
     
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  11. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @ChickenFreak
    Chekov's Gun! That's the trope.

    Oh, yes, also the fact that Vader/Anakin was the "chosen one" and destined to destroy the Sith, Luke's defeat at Palpaltine's hands and then Vader killing Palpatine was always preordained. It was just a really long time coming. Also it does bring "balance" to The Force in that it annihilates the Sith, and the Sith annihilated the Jedi, so now no powerful Force user regimes remain in control and therefore The Force is balanced.
     
  12. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    Because even then, it would change things. And if it doesn't, if this huge plot element is introduced which has NO actual use or reason in the plot, and otherwise the plot would just be a historical fiction series based in the Viking Age, then why introduce it. I understand magic having limits, but magic is something that changes the world so dramatically that if it in any way exists beyond the lowest possible level, history changes. And if it IS the lowest possible level, then why introduce it since it does nothing and has no purpose.

    To put this in perspective, if you want a world set in some Ancient Rome style fantasy world, but introduce gunpowder, you either have to follow through on the logical response to that (guns or explosives would exist, eventually be weaponized) or make it so impotent compared to...idk, some magical shield power everyone has from birth, that the reader would ask "what is the point?" Once you introduce a plot point, especially one which actually would have impact like sorcery or guns, then you have to explain why it has no impact if you show them basically still living in the Kingdom of Equestria. For fuck sake Snow White, they represented magic and sorcery in a more realistic manner, because they may not have had defined limits but they still showed the logical extension of it. This crazy chick can talk to a magical mirror and look into it to see anywhere in reality, so she uses it to spy on his enemies. When she finds one who she feels is a threat she sends her assassin to kill her, but it fails so she uses alchemy to disguise herself and does it herself with a poison apple...but the cursed apple has a weakness, if a person who truly loves her kisses her then all the curses fly apart, so she tries to prevent this and is killed by the prince who loved Snow White, who kisses her and revives her from her coma. The end. ALL of this makes PERFECT sense and works within both restrictions and in a logical manner. And its a fairy tale about some crazy Jane Fonda "I love plastic surgery" bitch has a magic mirror that feeds her vanity and tries to kill Selena Gomez cause she's got a nicer flank. Bang!
    Consistency.
    Restrictions.
    No plot holes.
    See how easy that was?
     
  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    So now you're allowing restrictions. Again you change your position.
     
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  14. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @ChickenFreak

    No I said, if you WANT these restrictions, you can have it without limiting everything to the point of impotence and irrelevance. You argued, "if all you can do is change colors then it would never change the setting" and I said, no, if you introduce magic AT ALL it changes things no matter what restrictions you place on it unless you render it so irrelevant it may as well not be introduced. YOUR argument is that if an author wants to make a world set explicitly in Medieval Times but they also want color changing magic, they then have to explain why no one has ever decided to, say, use this as cloaking abilities or use this like a flash-bang--which in a world of swordsmanship would be devastating but whatever--and then if you DID alter it to the point that it was effectively useless, you now have a useless plot element you introduced just to have it there and for no real purpose or reason.

    IF you introduce something incredible and powerful it needs to be logically applied, IF you introduce it and then explain it has no purpose or use whatsoever then you have no reason to introduce it at all. Again, Lucas did this better. If you show that The Force exists, and explain it can kill people with a thought, but then explain Force users can shield themselves against this therefore it has a defined limit but only against powerful Force users. So the reason Luke can't kill Vader is because Vader is the stronger Force user, but Vader can strangle a normal man to death from another star system since they have no Force powers. So then you explain that, say, the Celestials can use The Force to rearrange star systems and it becomes obvious why they ruled the universe before their civil wars collapse their empire...because they were the best at using The Force and therefore shielded by it against other Force users. Again, a defined limit, but one which also makes sense within the setting since that defined limit is so immaterial that it renders the Celestials almost unstoppable...explaining both their rise to power and how internal power struggles tore their civilization apart, since their power was so great when turned inward it annihilates them. A house divided cannot stand, especially one where the average joe can crush a star with his feelings...

    Restrictions are fine, but if they exist ONLY to further the story, it's pointless. If the restrictions EXPAND the story, give weight and depth to it, they stop being restrictions and become RULES. So the rule is, Force users can shield themselves, so they can't readily Force Choke each other...but a normal person has no shield, so Vader can kill them through Skype using The Force. That is a rule, it lends depth and explanations, it's not just a restriction it's a plot element that expands on and explains the concepts of the setting. So when you see Palpatine blasting Luke and about to kill him and mortally wound Vader even when Palpatine was weakened himself, you know how powerful he is, since Vader couldnt do that to Luke and Luke couldn't do it to Vader...but Palpatine could have taken EITHER of them in a fight one-on-one. That is a rule, it's a restriction that makes sense and has no contradictions.
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Actually, I said the colors of goldfish. You're the one who declared that if you can change the color of a goldfish you can change the color of the sky.

    This may be our difference. I like subtle plot elements. I suspect that if I introduced a pocket knife, you'd say that it was useless and demand a fully automatic grenade launcher. While I'm totally fine with the plot elements you can get with a pocket knife. Or, for that matter, the pointy attribute of a knitting needle.

    You're also assuming, it seems, that everybody will be affected by magic. But why would they? If you have a few magic users, why would they bother to go out and change the life of every single peasant? In Wheel of Time, a few people have magic, but there are still farmers using farmer technology, because the magic users aren't interested in going out and magically plowing everybody's land, or magically churning everybody's milk into butter, or magically bringing water out of the ground every time somebody wants to wash their hands, or whatever.
     
  16. LastMindToSanity

    LastMindToSanity Contributor Contributor

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    I would say that one of the indisputable rules of all Fantasy stories is that the world of the story must have at least one major difference from the one we live in. This difference must also be of a variety that, according to the Laws of the Universe as we know them, must be an impossibility within our world.

    Examples: Prophecies that can accurately predict the future and be relied on for guidance; Magical abilities with no scientific explanation; Magical items with no scientific explanation; etc.

    Anyways, that's just my two sense. On a side-note, is it "two sense", "two cents", "two-sense", or "two-cents"? I've never known.
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I agree that that's the expectation. The problem for me, and mostly just for me, is that that that leaves a poorly-defined "not our world but no magic or weird creatures" non-genre, which matters to me because that's what my WIP falls in. :) I think I have no choice to call it fantasy because it doesn't fit anywhere else.

    Now, it does have some supernatural elements, but they could just as easily exist in our world.

    Edited to add: Two cents. Huh. I think. Never thought to question.
     
  18. MusingWordsmith

    MusingWordsmith Shenanigan Master Contributor

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    I've heard that called 'low fantasy' and I also am sorta writing that? Fantasy with no magic at least, but a few other things that are definitely not usually found in fantasy.

    I like low-fantasy though, I'm not a big fan of magic but I love alternate worlds!
     
  19. Bobby Burrows

    Bobby Burrows Banned Contributor

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    As long as you're passionate enough @ChickenFreak rules can be broken or bent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  20. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @ChickenFreak
    My mistake then. When you said "change the color of fish" I may have assumed you meant change colors in general...I thought you said that but again, I may have taken it as read. But ok, so it's only fish. If so, then that's what I mean by a "power" so irrelevant why introduce it? It has no purpose, has no plot relevance, unless the color of fish is an actual...idk plot point? Then it would be useful, but otherwise why not just tell the story without it since it has no meaning.

    The Force shielding thing is a subtle plot element. It's never even really explicitly stated, just shown, and off-hand at that. But when you realize the significance of it then it suddenly gives the final battle between Palpatine and Vader/Luke a whole new meaning since you realize what seems like just some lightning and screaming is literally the surface of a psychic duel between a fallen messiah, a demi-god like wizard and the second coming. In the material world it looks like Palpatine bashing Luke with lightning but underneath, in the psychic plane we don't see, it probably looked like this...



    As for Earthsea...I haven't read the series, so I can't comment, but if their power is genuinely like say a Jedi or something then why they never did anything with it would require some kind of actual explanation. Heroes, a FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC show by the way, explains this. Some just want to be "normal" but realistically they can't because even if they tried the average person would be worshiping them in awe at best and terrified to the point of suicide at worse. And they show this, they just literally show this, explain it. Maybe it's not subtle but it explains the concept. Hiro is a superhuman who can control space and time, he can time travel and teleport across the universe in a heartbeat, he wants to just be a normal guy but he can basically erase people from history at a thought so "normal" went past him a long time ago. So they introduce weaknesses to make this nigh-omnipotence make sense, and then within the setting he has power, and is by far one of the most powerful superhumans on the show, but at the end of the day he CAN be defeated.
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yep yep. I'm writing "fantasy" because I want the culture and customs that I want.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I introduced it to the discussion because you seemed to be arguing that any magic at all would irrevocably change the fictional world and make it impossible to have a medieval-technology world. I think that we're coming to the fact that any magic that interests YOU, personally, would have that effect. I like much subtler magic. Subtle. Low power. Unreliable. Hidden. I find that infinitely more interesting.
     
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  23. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    Yes and that works fine frankly, I believe the term is "Low Fantasy". To a a large degree Game of Thrones fits into that trope so you can easily work with it. I guess most of my exposure to fantasy would be Steampunk or High Fantasy so, my experiences are basically founded in Wild Guns or Warhammer Fantasy. It's...less subtle by a huge margin but it works too.
     
  24. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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  25. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Superman doesn't kill Lex Luthor because he doesn't want to. That's entirely plausible and consistent within the story. He considers it at times and does it in some AUs but it doesn't happen for the same reason many people haven't been killed who pissed someone else of. Because "A" does not necessarily equal "B". It's when "A" seems to contradict "B" or is out of whack with "C" that you have a problem. Do you really, honestly, not get this? Do you not understand why people don't break rules in fantasy willy-nilly?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018

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