Does Fantasy have rules?

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by ChickenFreak, Nov 1, 2018.

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  1. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    There are defined limits to Cap's shield. It's been ages so I'd have to look back through some of my stuff but I'm certain in past issues it has been broken, or certain characters have implied they could or shown they could...

    As for Zatanna, that is again a perfect example of what I mean, where her singular power is that if she says something backwards she can make it happen no matter how insane it is. Now, against the Flash or Superman, who can move faster than light, this would be useless as they can outmaneuver her in literally an instant--but against a normal human or even superhuman like, say, Aquaman or The Thing or the Incredible Hulk she'd be unstoppable. Against Darkseid or Thanos she'd be unstoppable as all she has to do to kill Darkseid is say "Dieskrad seid! Mih etah I!" and he would drop dead. Spell it out you'll get the joke. :)

    So she DOES have weaknesses, those weaknesses are broad, but they exist. Another example would be Superman, who is basically omnipotent and omniscient BUT magic hurts him like it would anyone else, as does telepathy, so say Thanos or Silver Surfer who are both incredibly powerful telepaths could overpower him in seconds, as would Dr. Doom who has vast magical powers too. So again, even with immense power, you can come up with story elements to make them function within limits, it's just difficult. Granted those characters from from different universes but you CAN come up with similar ideas, and people have.
     
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  2. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @Bone2pick
    Well again, interpret the "he's just as smart or almost as smart as Captain Marvel" element as you will, but Captain Marvel is explicitly stated to be omniscient (he has the Knowledge of Solomon which is outright stated to let him see and know anything he wants or needs to whenever he chooses to) and Superman is supposed to be equal or nearly equal to that. There are videos online where people discussed it better but it's shown in the comics, he never USES this power, neither does Captain Marvel, but he has it as a power. So does Silver Surfer if I recall...I may be getting that mixed up with another Marvel cosmic character.
     
  3. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    om·nis·cient
    /ämˈnisēənt,ämˈniSHənt/
    adjective
    1. knowing everything.
      "the story is told by an omniscient narrator"
      synonyms: all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing
    Superman is not basically omniscient. He doesn't know if Lex Luther will ever have a change of heart. He doesn't know if he can keep Lois safe from his enemies. He doesn't know if Metropolis will be a better, safer city tomorrow than it is today. He doesn't know the answer to every social problem. Furthermore, he's not even sure how much he should assist humanity through those problems.

    This is the final response you'll get from me on this.
     
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  4. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    That "nonsense" is the foundation of the character.

    The long winded whinge about Lois not immediately seeing through his disguise ignores the fact that 1) people like Dolly Parton and Charlie Chaplin have entered lookalike contests of themselves...and didn't win, and 2) Clark acts different from Superman, so the notion of them being the same comes off as ridiculous to people in universe. And let's not forget Lois has known who he is for a while now. Others have figured it out (Catwoman, most recently).

    What kind of omnipotent being gets killed when they're actively trying not to die? An omnipotent character could've squashed Doomsday like a bug. An omnipotent being wouldn't get captured, as Superman did in the first Apokalyptan invasion in current continuity. An omnipotent being wouldn't get trashed by an insane rookie super (and not only does Gotham beat Superman with relative ease, he beats Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman and two Green Lanterns in the same fight). Batman gives him a tough fight in Endgame thanks to power armor, red sun radiation, and kryptonite. Cheetah badly wounds him thanks to her magic. Just the existence of Superman's weaknesses mean he's not omnipotent.

    As for omniscience, I'm pretty sure that was retconned away with lots of other Silver Age nonsense a while ago.

    Turning to the idea of him becoming some god-king, that's tied in with upbringing. He doesn't do it because he feels it's wrong, and he feels it's wrong because that's what the Kents taught him. This is best showcased when you look at some of DC's other worlds, where he isn't raised by them. His pod lands in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union and he grows up to be a brutal person.

    Many real, normal people are very averse to killing, so I don't see an issue there. And let's not forget that Lex is portrayed as the richest man on Earth and these days takes pains to insulate himself from his schemes and keep his public image as shiny as possible. Someone like that is always going to be a threat.

    Anyway, to tie all this back on topic, even comic book universes are governed by rules. They might shift over the years as the continuity is tinkered with, but there are rules. And like I said earlier, those rules can include character traits just as much as scientific or magical laws.
     
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  5. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    I can't think of a single magical law that's maintained in the DC Comics Universe. Can you?
     
  6. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    I'm talking about fantasy in general with that last sentence.

    As for the DCU, I'm not very deeply invested in the magic side of it, but I believe Zatanna's spells work in a consistent way (backwards words to achieve a desired effect). The rule may be pretty loose, but it's there. And the whole premise of the new Justice League Dark series is that magic isn't working the way it should anymore.
     
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  7. 8Bit Bob

    8Bit Bob Here ;) Contributor

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    Well such a novel (to my knowledge) has yet to be written. Maybe there's an untapped market there though... :superthink::p
     
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  8. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    I understand. I brought it back to the DCU in order to make the point that not all magically-active fantasy requires magical laws.

    I would categorize Zatanna's spell casting as a character trait as opposed to a law of magic. There's seemingly nothing magic can't accomplish within the DCU, hence why I would call it lawless. It doesn't have boundaries. And just as importantly, it's inconsistently portrayed from story to story. And those inconsistencies are not merely errors, they are often consciously disregarded. The universe can get away with this because the readership, by and large, doesn't prioritize magical rules, they prioritize new and interesting conflict.
     
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  9. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    I agree, and in fact I'd love to see some kind of series which takes superheroic stuff and applies it to a more realistic setting. I kinda threw together something like that once, I should try to revise it a bit.
     
  10. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    Absolutely, good fantasy should have rules. Without them, you would have a myriad of problems- contradictions, anachronisms, a plethora of deus ex machina situations, and more. Most fantasies seem to have established a baseline- a general era or time period that their fantasy world is based on- and elaborate from there. So, my baseline, for example, is medieval Europe. My fantasy world tech does not exceed medieval tech. That doesn't mean a century later in my world will still be medieval- it will have grown and evolved, as worlds and technology does. But it will do so in a way that makes sense. My sword-wielding heroine is not going to suddenly conjure up an AK-47 mid-battle, because, well, that wouldn't work based on the rules of the world. Sure, there's gryphons and pegasai and magical beasts in my world- but they are not going to suddenly turn their heads and say, "Hey, what's up, man?" because I have established that they have limited communication (aka, another rule about how my world works- the magical beasts communicate like normal animals). Now, I'm not saying you can't make exceptions to your set rules, but there has to be a reason that makes sense. So an exception to the beasts communication- a magical beast will not 'speak' to Average Joe, but their bonded Rider can send/receive mental images and a general sense of their emotional state from them, and thereby infer from this what they are saying/feeling. This makes sense, because of their bond. So an exception that has an explanation.
    I'm rambling a little, but the gist of what I'm trying to say is that fantasy needs rules to govern it, because if anything goes, you'd have a lot of things going willy-nilly and your reader might be tempted to use the book as firestarter.
     
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  11. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    Rule One: Fantasy does not have rules.
    Rule 2. "Fantasy does not have rules" is a rule.
    Rule III: Everything must be consistent.
    4:th Rule: If "Fantasy does not have rules" is a rule and rules does not exist, then that rule does not exist. So...
    Mob Rules: Just listen carefully if you like that kind of music.
    Narration Rules: More guidelines it than rules is, if you what I mean get.
     
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  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    You wouldn't necessarily have those things, but the fewer rules you have the more you have to be on guard against them. My post #44 in this thread elaborates on that, based on something I read from a fantasy author.
     
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  13. DeeDee

    DeeDee Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, but they are all invented by the author :twisted:

    Not really. It would just have been a different story where a magic user goes to Oz.

    There doesn't have to be a quest to kill the which, or there doesn't even have to be a quest that you can predict. It could be a totally surprising quest, like in "Dust Till Dawn" you didn't know how it would turn out but it turned out to be really entertaining. In your examples you're just saying that this particular story couldn't have been written in any other way, but it could. Because it's fiction.
     
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  14. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    I'd say magic in the DCU is along the lines of an umbrella term for multiple different phenomena that seem to violate the laws of the universe. The different types contradict each other, but are relatively consistent within themselves. There's an undercurrent of sacrifice being the price of this sort of power, but that's one of the only unifying constants I can find.
     
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  15. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @Stormsong07
    I understand, and I see your point, I guess my idea is...establish rules before the series starts but these rules need to also mean something. Be there for a reason. IF the magic exists in universe to conjure up an AK-47, but you never use it, it should be revisited so that's not the case.

    So like...ok shameless self-promotion...so like ages ago I penned out a couple of short stories set in a world where one of the primary magical principles was basically you need certain blessed runes, and certain ingredients, to cast a spell. You write it out and burn the ingredients and the spell paper and this casts magic. Honestly I should sue the people who made the new MLP because the whole "Spike can burn pieces of paper with his fire breath, and they teleport or cast spells" was my Idea in 1998. Anywho, when someone figured out how gunpowder worked, the idea struck them "why not make bullets, or shells, with ground up ingredients and little rolls of paper with runes written on them and fire them from a gun to cast spells at range" and in like a few years these caster rifles were omnipresent as well as shells of different types. So a matchlock rifle, but one that can summon dragons or you shoot a wall and a portal opens that lets you step back in time, or something like that. So there are defined limits, namely how long it takes to load a matchlock gun, but at the end of the day, it's common to arm the average joe soldier with what amounts to a Green Lantern ring...in fact there are ACTUAL lanterns wielded by elite warriors which burn various ingredients in battle casting constant spells, like shielding wards and healing spells. Also some of the more extreme spells require rarer and more important ingredients, so they're rare, expensive ammo which only the elite have, or can afford. Now couple this with the fact there are people akin to Earthbenders who can basically summon towering, skyscraper-sized golems you can adorn with armor and give rockets and cannons that fire these "caster rounds" but on a MASSIVE scale, and some sorcery can animate scarecrows so you can forge armies of near-mindless killing machines. This all happens in a short period of time, to the degree that a war is averted because basically one side develops NUKES for all practical purposes (rockets that can hit targets miles away and basically open the gates to Hell swallowing mile-wide areas into a realm of infinite damnation) and so things eventually stabilize.
     
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  16. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    That's brilliant, ironically that's better explained than ACTUAL magic in the DC universe and it's a fandom guess, but wow that was fucking profound. You actually gave a really good cosmological model there for magic. A++
     
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  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    True. I like those books as well. I should have said the stories I was referring to have often have a traditional fairy-tale quality or feel.
     
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  18. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    Ok, @ChickenFreak, @Stormsong07, @Bone2pick, everyone, this chick...this chick gets it! This is a fucking great dive into the idea of rules and fantasy and what it means and how magic should work it's fucking brilliant, praise Jesus I am so glad I found this! I think it just dropped today but this is great this is like what I was rambling on trying to articulate about how things evolve and how it affects shit...but shes more eloquent lol

    I think cause she sounds kinda British?

    Look, gaze upon it!
     
  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Looks like she’s basically making the points I made above. She said it comes from Sanderson—I couldn’t remember who it was. Good to know.
     
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  20. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @Steerpike
    My bad, I couldn't read all the posts cause my computer is kinda on the fritz so I may have missed that, my mistake. But if so then yes I agree wholeheartedly.
     
  21. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    It’s a good point. Im glad to be reminded of where I heard it from. I think it’s a good set of guiding principles, generally.
     
  22. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    My big issue is that when you introduce magic and technology that is groundbreaking, or even if it doesn't seem groundbreaking has some previously unseen capabilities, then you MUST follow through and show how the world evolves legitimately, or else it becomes absurd, it becomes a plot hole. Once again I reference Avatar: the Last Airbender, where because of the powers that existed in that world, they go from the stone age to 1930s Europe and America in just a few generations. The reason is because if Bending is used in ANY way that is realistic then...well you get Avatar: cyborg ninjas, laser cannons, giant mecha, tanks, ironclads and airships coexist with magical shamans, dragons and swordsmen. And ironically as insane as it sounds, that and stuff like it (Battle Chasers, Final Fantasy 7, Warcraft, Warhammer) are by far the most realistic approximations of such a world seen, a world where magic exists and has evolved realistically, and so has society and technology. IF magic like Bending was real, you have people who are walking tanks, people who command lightning, people who can heal anything with a thought, people who can control the seven seas, people who can forge living armor from metal, etc etc.

    That world would never be like ours, and never be frozen in some specific period, and frankly would barely resemble our world or any timeline we know of...it would be even MORE alien and bizarre. The 90s comic series Battle Chasers also did a fantastic job of that, and shows just how alien and how different from Earth that would truly be. So yeah, fantasy can have "rules" but if the rules exist just to make sure everyone is still living in the per-industrial Viking Age even though you have viable forms of space travel, time travel, interdimensional travel, directed-energy attacks, magic shields and healing spells and would, realistically, be living more in Halo than in MiddleEarth then that's not a "rule" it's a plot contrivance.
     
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  23. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Well most stories have 'rules' to some extent. Though with Fantasy,
    you can make them up and they don't have to make a lick of sense. :p
    Though it helps to have them established in one way or another, and
    try to adhere to them as best you can. Rules are the internal logic that
    kinda holds the story together when it comes to characters and events.
    Can be as strict or as wanton as you wish, but they will always be there
    to keep some sense of order to the chaos you create. :)
     
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  24. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Taboos of the enlightened suburb must be maintained for fantasy. They hero is assertive and boy rides his wheelchair under the rainbow in 12th century Greece projection on to orbit.

    Goddam, that is one prejudice re fantasy [thunders]...
     
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  25. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    It may be useful to distinguish what you can get away with in anime or comics versus what a reader will accept in a short story or novel.
     

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