sounds to me like you need to do more READing than writing at this point in your life... read good novels by the best writers throughout history, as well as the best [not the most popular] ones of today... and study how they flesh out their stories to get them to book length... and don't agonize over it now, since you're so young and only getting started... you have many years to learn and perfect your writing skills... don't rush things... keep that old bit of advice about 'haste' in mind... love and hugs, maia
Hello all. I have been writing on and off for probably about 10 years now - mostly as a hobby with no real plans to publish. Lately the urge to pursue a serious writing project and try to get published has become important to me. I am working on a novel, that I am 12 chapters done with writing (first draft) out of a planned 38 or so. The problem is that I did a little research today and it looks like the expectation of sci fi / fantasy fiction is around 120,000 words at the upper end - even though there have been books out there much larger than that. My current MS is already at about 140,000 words and i'm only 30% done with what I have planned in the outline. I'd like to think that Microsoft Word is giving me inflated stats or that the 250 words per page when using Times New Roman, 12 point, double spaced might be misleading - but the amount of story I have written down compared to the amount of story I have to tell to finish this seems incongruent with the word count expectations. Assuming I can trim some bits out, I can see it maybe falling into the 250-300k word range. The nature of the story does not lend itself well to being chunked up into multiple books - its not really a plot that advances in distinct stages. At this point I am wondering if I should just go ahead and finish it - writing it out to be as long as the story needs it to be, polish it up, and set it aside until I can get something smaller out there to be published. Is it really that out of whack for a book to come in at the 300k word range? I have seen a lot of posts here and there from writers who say they struggle to hit 80,000 words or 90,000 words... Perhaps I am approaching something from the wrong direction as this seems to me to be a little too short to tell the story I have to tell.
If your manuscript falls outside the 80,000-120,000 word range specified by most publishers' submission guidelines (and the majority strongly prefer 80,000-100,000 words), you will almost certainly never even be read. Publishers have too many manuscript submissions, and word count is a very easy criterion to thin the herd. Furthermore, it shows you are unable or unwilling to follow directions. Make it fit. If you have too much or too little story for it to fit, and cannot adjust the story to bring it to the range, choose a different story to tell. New writers cannot expect flexibility. A proven successful writer is another matter, but until you have proven your marketability (and professionalism), you aren't special enough to warrant leniency.
Definitely got to get within 80-100k maybe 110k max if looking for traditional paper publishing. If you're e-booking your own work, then word count doesn't necessarily matter. However, if you're twelve chapters in and at 130k of words, I'm willing to bet there's plenty of flab there that can be trimmed down-or the idea needs to be separated into different, smaller stories. One mistake a lot of new writers make is being in love with their words. It's impossible to feel that way, and expect to be commercially viable no matter which road you take. I myself don't tend to be overly verbose when I write anymore, but I've managed to cut anywhere from 9-30% out of any given chapter when hard copy editing. One chapter went from a morbidly obese 3683 to 1919 after editing. So, I'm willing to bet there's a good chunk that could be chopped out or rewritten more efficiently to bring down word count. But, as Cog said, reconsider the story too-or see if it can be placed into separate novels that are the right size, and still convey the story line you want in an efficient manner.
My first novel was 420,000 words. When I went back and looked at it critically, I found that the leading causes of the inflated word count were too much backstory, explaining too much and leaving nothing to the reader's imagination, very long sequences of dialogue (including incidental conversation that happens in real life but should not be included in a written story) and just being repetitious, especially with character names. I went back and got it down to 140,000 words - still too much to be published, but I stopped there because I realized that it had other weaknesses, and that it had already served its real purpose - as a learning experience.
The first novel I tried to write came in over 420k words too, and much like what you said - I let it go as a learning excercise and didn't pursue it further after trying to edit it down. Thanks all for the feedback. I guess the fundamental problem is that the initial plot idea came from a storyline I wrote up for an RPG session, and I am trying to essentially transcribe that into a novelized form. There's 6 primary characters involved but they're so enmeshed that I'm not sure if I can just excise one or two of them. I can definately trim down some things though. I am explaining a lot of things, mostly due to the fact that its a sci fi setting that I have been developing story for for about 10 years now and there are terms and things unique to it that are not common knowledge. I have been sending chapters around here and there to some people for feedback, only one of whom is a professional proofreader, and so far I have been getting very positive feedback - the proofer mentioned that she "has seen far worse than this published", which I am taking as a good reason to continue with it... It seems like my two choices then are to find what I can to eliminate and keep the core of the story intact or try to separate it into several books. I will admit to having a lot of backstory for characters, even minor ones have fairly complete ones - even if only 10% of it gets mentioned in the text. Perhaps now would be a good time , since its getting at about the limit of word size for a manuscript for me to seriously look at how to divide the plot into maybe three books, or two depending on how much I can trim. What I am concerned with though is ending the first book in a way that doesn't just make it feel like a part 1 of 2, but has a satisfying end point unto itself.
Hmm. If 3683 words is obese for a chapter, I guess 15,000 is going to be a problem. What is vexing me is that it doesn't FEEL too long... I just applied the 250 words per page calculation to chapter 9, and that came out to be 9250 instead of the 13357 that MS word is telling me.
If after trimming and cutting you find the story is still way too long, just break it up into a trilogy. Just like Star Wars.
Perhaps... I am just wondering if I'm doing something fundamentally wrong since every chapter I have so far is at least 9000 words, often more. None of the people that I have shared sample chapters with have said that I am too wordy. Perhaps the flaw is with my outline, and I am trying to cram too much into each chapter. Essentially what I did was write the plot in an outline format, gathered my thoughts for what needed to happen within each chapter, then named each chapter. A 3000 word chapter feels so short I'm not sure how to advance any of the story points along in it Obviously - I am not doing something correctly. Then again with an ensemble cast of 6 main characters going up against 3 primary adversaries - maybe the overall plot just plain wont fit in a single book. I suppose I could restructure it in a series of confrontations one after the other instead of fiddling around with cat and mouse games and suspense leading up to a final showdown with all 3 baddies at the end.... Yanno now that I am thinking about it; i just might be able to manage chopping it up into three parts with some of the side-plots that are unrelated to the main story arc spreading out among the different books.
MS Word's count on words is pretty much accurate. The average is 250 words, per page but it doesn't mean that's what's being used. I have 3571 in words single spaced so far in 9 pages and it breaks down to 396 words per page. Double space that and you'll get roughly 200 per page. I'm wordy enough that entire paragraphs (note 3.6k going down to 1.9k) can be cut and the story still flow. It depends on the kind of world your building. However, as mentioned earlier, if you're at 130k in 12 chapters out of 38, either somethings are going to have be cut, and a close examination of whether there are repetitive items, etc that can be removed. Books are never written on their first drafts but when editing. PS. The 3683 became obese when it became repetitive in places and had entire paragraphs that didn't need to be there. I trimmed 30k words off my novel in hard copy editing and have replaced them with 30k of characterization and setting up the sequel. So, not all words are bad or are created equal either.
Yep. It was only meant to be a single book, a sequel to The Hobbit, but he got carried away and then had to turn it into a trilogy
True about LOTR Does it work to just cut a book off? As my plot outline is now, in order to make separate books out of it I was thinking of rearranging the 3 main antagonists into a resolution with each one in turn at the end of each book, but that would cause some significant changes to the plot from how I had initially envisioned it. How workable would it be to have three separate books that are sequential as if to say book two just up and picks off where book 1 stopped?
No. A new author has to offer a single, complete novel, not a series or series installment. Furthermore, even a series installment has to be a complete, stand alonr story. Your example, Star Wars, is an example, even though Lucas was already a well-established filmmaker. That first film, although Lucas had a nine-story arc sketched out, was a story that stood well on its own. It did not require any of the other films of the series.
I am in awe of those who can carry a story for 400K+. lol If I ever even get to 100K for 1 novel, it'd be a miracle. lol
I had been told, for fantasy at least, that publishers preferred trilogies. Now, that was twenty years ago, so times may have changed and considering the source, it is likely that was incorrect in the first place. So never mind that. But you're right. That first book would need to be tooled into a complete story on its own with room for more story to follow. That is the challenge Matthew has in front of him. Either cutting his epic down to a publishable length or turning the first act into a stand alone story that could be the first part of a series, a natural consequence of break his story up into several books.
ditto most of the advice above... if you want to have any chance of getting that book published by a paying publisher, there is no alternative to cutting it down to no more than not much over 100k... you might squeak by with 120, but no more than that...
Is this only for the first book from an unknown author? I have read books that felt way over the 100k mark, 700 pages or so in paperback. Maybe i'm adding too many details and side plots but a mere 100k words feels so small and constrained. What about finishing this one and then doing another manuscript or two in that range to get my foot in the door, then bringing this one up if I ever do develop a working relationship with an agent? I mean this is kind of wierd. I sit down with a chapter outline and start typing and before I know it i'm at 10-14k words and I don't feel that i'm being too wordy, though I will concede that I may describe things more than once - which I will need to go back through and look for. E.g. one of the characters is quite pale and I always refer to that whenever mentioning her skin. Of course I like to paint vivid mental images... perhaps I am afraid of under-describing things.
That is a typical and often unfounded fear for new writers. In light of this, catting your story down to a more reasonable length may be a realistic possibility.
Be brutal - I seen one of my novels being carried off into epic territory and decided okay, one of you characters and sideplots has got to go. If that doesn't jive - cut scenes that echo each other - if people are discussing something they have already hashed out - cut it. Also some scenes can be turned into transitional-type paragraphs. Rather than show everything that has to happen - have a time passing paragraph that highlights a pile of events. - I've been working this technique into my own project to cut down on the chapters.
“Whenever you feel an impulse to perpetrate a piece of exceptionally fine writing, obey it – whole-heartedly – and delete it before sending your manuscripts to press. Murder your darlings” ~Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch
Did some poking around and found this: Makes me wonder where this 120k thing is coming from... (http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/1869) Lord of the Rings - J. R. R. Tolkien (revised to be in line with the rest) The Fellowship of the Ring: 187k The Two Towers: 155k The Return of the King: 131k Total: 473k Wheel of Time - Robert Jordan The Eye of the World: 305k The Great Hunt: 267k The Dragon Reborn: 251k The Shadow Rising: 393k The Fires of Heaven: 354k Lord of Chaos: 389k A Crown of Swords: 295k The Path of Daggers: 226k Winter's Heart: 238k Crossroads of Twilight: 271k Knife of Dreams: 315k Total: 3M 304k (official count) Stormlight Archives - Brandon Sanderson The Way of Kings: 387k (official count) A Song of Ice And Fire - George R. R. Martin A Game of Thrones: 298k A Clash of kings: 326k A Storm of Swords: 424k A Feast for Crows: 300k A Dance with Dragons: 422k Total: 1M 770k Malazan Book of the Fallen - Steven Erikson Gardens of the Moon: 209k Deadhouse Gates: 272k Memories of Ice: 358k House of Chains: 306k Midnight Tides: 270k The Bonehunters: 365k Reaper's Gale: 386k Toll the Hounds: 392k Dust of Dreams: 382k The Crippled God: 385k Total: 3M 325k
