If the objective is to be traditionally published, it is already difficult enough to even get out of the slush pile for full consideration. Top agents and publishing houses get hundreds of queries and submissions a month (those that take unsolicited submissions). Even small presses get multitudes more than they can hope to publish. Indicating a 300,000 word completed manuscript will earn a form rejection probably as fast as having one spelling and grammar errors in the letter's first paragraph. They have so many more manageable-sized manuscripts to consider, and they'll have to sell that big one (a huge hurdle for themselves)--either an agent to an editor/publisher, or an editor to the managing editor/marketing and bean counting departments. Yes, there are exceptions. And yes, authors of epic fantasy novels do write novels that are very long. Actually, their contracts sometimes call for a minimum of words for a piece (150,000 or 250,000) because that's what that publishing house expects. Those authors are also those that have proven themselves in the market place. As has been said, having a standalone novel to begin with, less than 120,000 words will greatly increase what are already long odds. It's not easy to just break a novel into three parts. Most novels are not structured that way (story arcs and such). With self-publishing, an author can do what he/she desires, but just because an author self-publishes certainly doesn't mean they (the readers) will come. In any case, a work should be as trim as possible because one bloated with irrelevant content that doesn't really move the story forward, will fail miserably. One might argue that heck, with ebooks, the length doesn't matter. But consider, that it will take more than 3 times as long to edit and copy edit a manuscript that is 300,000 words as it does one with 100,000 words. That means three novels could be edited and made ready for publication in that time. Sure, one monster epic would require only one investment in cover art and fewer marketing strategies. But it also means placing more eggs for sales in one basket.
I do intend to go back through the whole thing and look for irrelevant side arcs that don't contribute anything to the overall story or the development of the principal characters - but the plot is on the complicated side and doesn't really lend itself to being smashed down into something that small. I did break the chapters up a bit more as I found some good points within the monoliths to do so. Most chapters are now 3-5k long. Once I get the whole manuscript completed with the first draft I'm going to go back through it and trim fat. Might also be able to crack it in two books. My estimated completion length based on the new chapters and dropping a bunch of irrelevant things is looking like it'll land about 220k words now, speaking before I go back through it and start trimming. I'll do what I can but I don't want to smash my storyline into pablum just to come in under an arbitrary number like that. If I can't divide it into two books I'll probably finish it off, put it aside, and then do something simpler that will fit in that size range in an attempt to get my foot in the door, then try to bounce this project off the agent. On another note I just finished the first draft of chapter 35, which came in at about 10 pages / 3203 words. It feels so insubstantial, but then again I suppose spiraling into 6 pages of backstory for a very minor character is just bloat.
Save what you have so you can go back to it if you want. (You should have multiple backups anyway). Then start cutting on some chapters to see what you can trim out without losing the character and plot development. If you can't get those chapters down a reasonable amount, then you will have to rethink the plot. It's ok to save some of the plot for a sequel or series, if the first book turns out good. I've heard that fantasy is more acceptable at 120k words than other genres for new authors, but I wouldn't want to push that limit.
One aspect that helps cut long sections is to realize what the reader already knows. I fall into this trap all the time, and have to cut, cut, cut. This happens when MC does 'this' or learns about '"that', but then I have the bad habit of repeating the info as new characters enter the plot. He explains things to them, but the reader already knows. Boring. I go back and chop.
Well, its done. After 3 editing passes i've managed to cut it down to 242864 words and that's where its stuck without major losses of plot or the complete removal of a character. Based on seeing quite a few books in this range (and longer) I'll probably make a few attempts with a query letter with it but ultimately expect to shelf it for awhile and grab one of the other dozen ideas I have rattling around and write up a smaller single-character thing just to get things going.
Don't even submit it now. After you have gotten published, then dust this one off. By that time, you'll have learned a lot, so go through it again then. Chances are, you'll also have a better mastery on the art of cutting by then as well. Submitting it now will count against you if you try submitting it later. Publishers don't like resubmissions unless they requested them.
Sorry if I'm stating the obvious but: is every scene essential in advancing the plot or in establishing characters? Do you get in you scenes late and leave early (tightly centred on the plot in other words) That could help you cut the "fat" so to speak. Congratulation on getting so much done!! and bigger congrats on cutting what you have. Next step post a sample excerpt for other to critique! Good luck. !!
ditto cog's sage advice... and i agree with elfin that it would behoove you to post an excerpt here, to get a reality check on the writing quality...
Okay, that's more or less what I was thinking at this point. Don't submit it, and work on something smaller. I can't find what to cut any more, I don't think its possible without compromising. Reasons that it is 242k words: There is an ensemble cast, two main characters and four other primary characters (plus a handful of bit parts) The book is set in a unique world that I created for a sci fi RPG that I also wrote, so there is a lot of description. The plot is a bit on the complicated side. But yeah, I accept that I need to start off smaller. I will post some excerpts to beg feedback on the writing itself. Most of the people I know that I sent samples to haven't gotten back to me except for one that I think will tell me its awesome no matter how bad it is, and another who just said he liked it - without giving detail. I'll pop back here and post the link to the samples.
Hmm.. Okay I went to post some excerpts, and I thought I was in the right place (novels) but I cannot seem to find the new thread button - or its hidden. Where should I post the excerpts?
That seems a bit awkward.. feels like if I'm asking for critique of my stuff not knowing if its any good - is it really my place to comment on someone else? okay then.. i'll see what I can do.
Although I haven't read a word of your novel, one thing in your penultimate post caught my eye: I'd bet you can cut a lot of it. The drawback of creating a "unique world" is that you feel you have to describe all of it. You don't. You need to know all of it, but the reader doesn't. The reader only needs to know enough to understand the story, and I'd bet real money you've included a lot more than the reader actually needs. Take a look at Asimov's Foundation series to see how little of a unique world really needs to be described. As far as whether it's your place to comment on someone else, anyone who participates in the writing workshop is doing two things - giving critique and receiving critique. Of those two, the former is the more important because by learning to critique others, you learn to critique yourself, and that's a skill you will need to develop if you intend to become a published writer.
Why don't you simply take a break from this project? Don't even read it - just cut yourself off altogether. When you come back to look at it few months~a year down the line you'll be able to look at it with a fresh perspective. It took me a year and a half to work out the best way to write the second draft of my current novel (which I'm aiming to cut 420/740 pages from). It has taken up to five years for a different project.
Ed - It's possible that I did include a little too much detail about the world - however if I compare the amount of detail in the setting with what is described in the novel its the proverbial tip of the iceberg. I'm sure that doesn't cover the ratio of what's necessary to describe for the story compared with the totality of what could be described at all regarding the world to what is. Anyone - Still trying to make up my mind which way to go for the next project. What tends to be received better, sci/fi cyberpunk or fantasy?
received better by whom?... and when? those are not things you should consider at all when trying to decide what to write... all you need consider is what can you write best?... and what genre do you have the best story ideas for?
I think that the length depends a lot on the way you can keep the story interesting. I read some books that were so amazing, I was sad they had only like 300 pages. And some that had good beginning, but the second half just sucked. It happens a lot, you write something that has to be there just because story developed this way, but you just keep convincing yourself its just fine to do so, while it is not. I personally use some tricks for that. If it happens after few pages in the chapter, I put a line there and continue at other place or other time. So some chapters can have like 4 different times, places or situations in it. It is important, because everytime I feel something might be wrong, I imagine douchebag like me skipping just on other page and then throwing the book away. And that's real game over for the writer. So shorter might mean better.
The "game" for a writer, until you're established as commercially successful, is to write a good story in while staying within the 80-120k word range. Thus, each word needs to be used efficiently and with a purpose. A really good story line will fill that amount up when used correctly.
Well, Virtual Immortality is 242k words because there are two main characters and four secondary characters and a somewhat complex main plot with one or two side plots going on. I'm sure I'd have no trouble fitting in the 80-120 mark if i stuck to one character and a less intricate plot. as far as what I'm better at? i'm honestly not sure. I wrote a fantasy novel a few years ago and it was a behemoth at 400k words. (even I wasn't happy with it at all). I have a number of ideas for BOTH - thats the problem, lol. Both fantasy and sci fi ideas come from RPG systems/worlds that i've developed over the past 20 something years and the various games that have gone on. Needless to stay I have plot up to my eyeballs, of course the downside to that is most of it is based on a group of characters and not a single protagonist. Nothing some tweaking won't fix but that still leaves me trying to find a plot that's "simple" enough to fit within the length requirements. I had another idea set in the same world as VI - but its even longer if I write it out as it happened at the table. Granted, that one very much lends itself into being broken up into several shorter books; which may work. Of course, I have a fantasy plot that fits the same thing. Dividable up into multiple books. I'm really not sure which one I do better. The most recent fantasy writing I have done was a little short scene based on the background of one of the NPCs. Its only about 4000 words, and I have not polished it up to the same point that I have with VI. So there I am, I have ideas for both and can't make up my mind which one to do. I was asking if there was more of a market for cyberpunk fiction or high fantasy... Unless some feedback falls out of the sky indicating otherwise I think i'm about equally adept with both. If anyone is interested in checking out the short fantasy thing and a chapter of VI let me know and I'll PM it. This site still wont let me post there, heh.
Isn't there a story that you just really want to write? One that stands out from all the other plots in your head? If so, write that one regardless of genre. Pick a story you're passionate about. I'd be happy to take a look over the short story and the chapter if you wish to send them.
check it out for yourself... but both have very limited markets... check publisher listings for presses that accept these genres and count how many there are... do an amazon genre search and see how many books are on the market in each one... check the shelves of any large book store, or the computerized 'card catalog' of your local library and do the same...
Question - I could eliminate a lot of "infodump" in the actual story by adding a prologue that sets the scene of the world and perhaps a glossary (or footnotes) to explain some terms at the end. Do either of these techniques fit with a novel?
certainly both things are often done... what matters is whether you can do it well enough to pull it off successfully...
