I'm always for pro-education. I think many people have a perception that higher-education, especially for areas that are very self-developing, are a replacement for self-progress which couldn't be further form the truth. Getting a degree in writing will not teach you how to write, instead, what it will provide you with the best tools in structured way and helps you to use them efficiently while balancing things like time constraints and other demands. The amount of effort you put into it is all on you and no matter if you self-study or go through a program, if you don't put in the effort, you just won't go far. Education to me is just a faster way to learn. You can learn different techniques in a smaller time-frame as opposed to self-study (which will most like take you longer.) It also provides you with a good network, and many different opportunities between writing contests, internships, workshops, field-trips etc. Sure you can learn everything about the writing field outside of a formal education too, but I think this highly depends on what can of person you are in general. Do you learn and grasp faster in structured environment as opposed to an unstructured one? Do you want to learn more outside your immediate are of study etc. It all has it's pros and cons, the best thing is to chose what is best for you. When people dismiss education completely - I always ask this: If had the opportunity to take some classes for free, would you take them? Once you have your answer, then ask yourself why.
But all of the 'masters' didn't have 'formal education in writing', did they? Yes, they may have learned from fellow (great) writers, but you can do that without getting a diploma in that field.
I don't know that anyone is dismissing it 'entirely' - only saying that it isn't *necessary* to be a successful writer. As to taking free classes, that would depend on the class. Many required courses (in writing and other areas) are worthless. If those were free, I still wouldn't take them. Others I would take if I only had to pay for those classes and not a whole degree program. And that to me is the crux of the matter. Considering the time, effort, and expense of a college education, I can't see that it's really worth the possible rewards - and considering the number of 'successful writers' who still can't live off their earnings from writing, I'm highly doubtful the cost/benefit makes it worthwhile. Unless, of course, one goes into a salaried writing career and does their independent work on the side.
You don't have to get a degree to take college courses in writing. Just so you know. And just out of curiosity --- being a judge of your own talent is a bit biased. At least with a college education you might be able to put some belief behind it. And if that person is such a talented writer then college will be an investment in their future as a writer. If you're not confident enough that your talent at writing will pay off the college then are you really that confident? I guess for me and an acquaintance of mine that is NYT best-selling author --- it's been very helpful. School is designed to hone talent, not create it. I guess I think not going is snubbing someone's potential. Regardless, I've said my peace.
Higher education usually does more for your mind that just teach you stuff. It usually helps you to understand life in it's complexity. You see many people can write grammatically perfect sentences, but many people lack the experience and the heart to write a realistic story. I think that if you know what you want to do, don't bother wasting your money on a higher education, but teach youself what you need to know. Maybe find a book group or a writing course at the local community center/college. Something low key and part time. If that helps, perhaps you might find uni is for you, if however you find yourself doing the leg work for your self, it may just encourage you to start teaching yourself.
Hello everyone, I would like to ask the same as DBock did, but I'm Dutch and I'm thinking of studying English next year to increase my grammar, vocabulary and knowledge of English in general. I'm new to the idea of becoming a writer but I believe it fits me really well. So, to a nonnative speaker, would it be incredibly important to study English? Or perhaps an English, writing-specific course? I'd like to know what you all think.
This topic sparked my interest because I am reading a book (John Gardner-the art of fiction) that claims it is (from what I understood) necessary with a university-education in litterature/creative writing to even think of becoming a good writer, which put me down a little since I have not studied at university and am not sure if I even could take up studies at this point, and I was asking myself if Im wasting my time hoping I could be good at this...(with time, practise and self-studies of course). it was interesting to follow this discussion and now i feel a little less bad about my lack of a formal education of this kind.
You don't have to get a degree - but you have to register as if you were. You can't just pick and choose classes to take and pay a fee for each one, at least not in the US. And if the class is any good at all, there are more than enough registered students wanting in without letting in Joe Blow off the street. So you register and pay tuition and then you have to carry so many credits or you end up being kicked out. So no, you don't have to get a degree, but you might as well since you're paying for it anyway. Well, having a piece of paper only says I know how to do the homework and take the tests - or write so the professor thinks I'm good, which may or may not mean anything to publishers. As to one's writing being able to pay off college - as I stated before, very few writers can live solely off their earnings as writers, education or not. Any money I make from my writing I'd prefer to spend on retirement or vacations rather than student loans.
It certainly isn't "necessary," and I think any number of successful writers prove that fact. As for learning from the greats, that's what we all do as avid and critical readers of their work, and again no college degree is necessary to engage in that activity.
I believe that there is are some major misconceptions when it comes to degrees and what they mean. For one, a lot of people equate a degree to mean either: A) You will now be an expert in the field B) It's automatic high paycheck C) Guarantees success There is no such thing as that. I can get a degree in Accounting, but that doesn't mean I'm guaranteed a high paying accounting job once I graduate, nor does it mean that I'll be a successful accountant. I will still need have inter-personal skills along with a drive and willingness to succeed. I must show future employers that I am competent, I can work well with other, I show good judgement, I use the skills that I have learned to the best of my abilities and so and so forth. Getting a degree in writing, while not required, CAN help to some degree. Yes it is not necessary, but that doesn't mean it can't help or contribute in some way. Also, there are few degrees out there that are simply not worth anything in the real world but are still offered because they do provide knowledge that if you want to learn you can learn. In fact, I was reading an article a couple months back on degrees that do not account to the cost of acquiring the degree once you receive it. Guess what, journalism was on that list, and I actually agree with it. In fact, here it is if you would like to take a look at it: http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/news/economy/1106/gallery.student_debt/index.html Just because someone says higher-education is a good route to go does not mean that they are saying pursuing a degree is equal to being successful in the field or it's a guaranteed money maker. It's not. However, if you would like to improve and would rather learn in a formal way to sharpen and hone your skills, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's not a requirement, yes, we've already established that, but just because it isn't, doesn't mean it's worthless either. Just do what is best for you. Actually, that's not true. You can apply as non-degree seeking student and take any class that you want. You don't have to meet criteria etc.. The only thing happens is that you're last priority as far as seating goes in class, and, you need to meet pre-requisites requirements, meaning that you can't take Advance Creative Writing 4 without take, Advance Creative Writing 1, 2, and 3. As long as you have your pre-requisite, you're good to go.
if you intend to write for the uk or us markets, it would certainly help to upgrade your knowledge of english and hone your writing skills in that language... whether it's 'incredibly important' to do so depends on how much your english needs to be improved upon...
From what I read, I get the impression that education is a bell curve when it comes to writing. Basic education is a must, and focused education will help to a point, then the further you go it seems to draw away from writing. Masters degree seems to detract from good writing. This is what I read, and in my field the higher up you go the more business oriented the work.(Nursing) So I wonder if that is why higher education detracts from writing. I believe Science degrees require writing classes so concentrating on other interests would also allow you to write for college. I want to do writing courses but not financially able to right now. So I frequent writing forums. (I am on 5 at least)
My education has been entirely natural science-based with a few required writing courses. Unlike most of my peers, I looked forward to these courses and they kept my interest in writing alive through all the years of biology and chemistry. While I do not think that a writing-based education is absolutely necessary for the creative writer, I do think it can be invaluable. If nothing else, it allows you to devote time exclusively to working on your craft, time that the rest of the world seldom allows. A course of study in creative writing may grant those two things most important to the writer as described by Virginia Woolf, money and a “room of one’s own.”
I have to say that your back story sounds freakishly similar to mine must be an aussie thing oh and yeah no wrong or right answer really i had the same worries but opted to apply for school anyway coming to the conclusion that even if its a mistake i can learn from it anyway gl in whatever path you choose
^ I think jpeter has it pretty spot on there. Above all else it gives you time to write. When you have to stop writing to study for you Media Studies or Physics course, that's time you're not writing (and that's going to be most of the time, if you're going for a 1st degree). If you have to stop writing to... study writing in a Creative Writing course or similar, it means you can essentially dedicate all your time to writing, both in your education life and spare time. THIS is probably what makes the course so useful, because most of the time we either have to be working or in education, it's not easily to be completely idle.
But you still have to register and pay the costs - including tuition - and take *any* prerequisites, which can be several and not just in writing. And you generally are not eligible for financial aid, so all those costs come out of pocket, upfront. To do all that, knowing that it is no more a guarantee of success than someone who attends workshops and self-educates, just doesn't seem worthwhile to me. Maybe because I've had to pay back student loans - and pay, and pay, and pay... So, yeah. If one wants to do it and has the money, go for it. But I don't think anyone should put themselves in the hole thinking that it's a magic door opener, or that it will automatically make one a better writer.
The problem isn't with creative writing programs or education, but with the people. This is always the problem, though. Guns don't kill people, people do. And education doesn't make someone educated, it's all based on the efforts of the student. I've seen hundreds (literally) of student writers who basically just sit passively in a class, thinking the dream of becoming a writer will come to them just because they paid for a spot in a fiction class. That's not how it works, though. The writers who succeed without formal education are those who fight for their writing goals and dreams to be realized. These are the same writers who succeed with formal education. A degree or class alone won't get you anything. In fact, it may hurt, because a lot of naive students think their A's and subsequent degree does matter in and of itself. But, in the end, in just about all professions but especially 'creative' ones, nobody cares about the piece of paper a degree is printed on. That said, statistically, those with college degrees do make more money on average. Many jobs require you to have a degree and don't care what in. My advice to U.S. students at least is to double major in writing and something more 'useful,' as you'll be able to get a lot of the same attention and time in writing classes and have a bit more heft behind your degree, and not even add that much work (instead of taking random 'fun' classes for electives, you're taking writing-related classes, which should make a writer happy). Double majoring in a related field to most writing/english degrees, whether linguistics or education or technical communications, often means you'll end up with a lot of crossover anyway, so the workload isn't even that much more (as it is double majoring in English and say Math). A degree in writing gets you nowhere, though a degree in general is good to have, but as I outline above there are ways you can make it a bit more useful. In many programs there is so much crossover you can come out with a double major and several certifications, if done right, like BA in writing and linguistics, certification in technical communication and a teaching endorsement, all without much extra workload or cost. General education will always help a writer, but a writing degree isn't going to make anyone famous or great (again, the misconception of most new student-writers is that it will, so they think slacking through and still getting A's will actually matter when it doesn't). And writing programs can be highly variable, some great, some terrible. A writer who is eager to learn and putting in the work will still improve greatly (from what I've seen) whether a program is good or bad. Again, it's the slacker students who shut down in a 'bad' classroom and give themselves an excuse to stop learning. Good writers will still be learning, even if it's questioning whether the instructor has a clue and searching for their own answers. In a good program, a writer will improve by leaps and bounds and make all the criticism of creative writing education look pretty foolish, pretty fast. Naive writers want to think it's all just a talent thing, where you've either got it or not, and nothing can be done to develop, shape or even guide that intangible 'it' that lets a writer make it. It's amazing how many times I've seen/heard this, only to see how quickly that perspective crumbles after even one class with a good instructor. The truth is, anyone who wants to be a good writer has to study. Whether it's actively in formal education, actively on one's own, or inactively (some people are blessed with having minds that are always studying even when they don't realize it). One way or another, by and large, writers who make it study. They don't just hope they're already great, but instead try to find ways to become great. A degree in writing won't guarantee greatness, but it sure can speed up the process and help guide a writer's study and learning, teaching them to read and how to read (many aspiring writers read an astonishingly low amount of fiction, and if nothing else a good writing program will force a writer to read, which is sadly often needed). Also keep in mind where [arguably] the 'real' creative writing instruction is to be had is in a Master's program. And you need an undergraduate degree (of any kind) to qualify. Getting a degree with at least some exposure to writing classes will prepare a writer for continued academic study at higher levels, if that's a path they're wanting to take, as well as provide references for either a graduate program or for jobs in the publishing industry. One of the biggest boon of formal writing education is that (in America at least) the publishing industry is greatly connected to academics. It's easy to point to the best-seller who didn't get a degree, but it's hard to ignore the vast amount in the industry who did get a degree (talking Master's here). Those connections and networking are all through the publishing/writing industry, whether it's agents or writers or conferences, and increasingly it's not just the 'literary' types that are making and using such connections, but all writers, as formal education and Master's programs have become so popular (there are hundreds of master's programs in creative writing, many are fully funded and pay you). So, if one is just looking at how much a piece of paper with a degree in writing stamped on it matters to their growth as a writer, I'd say they're already missing the point, and it won't help much. That piece of paper won't make someone a better writer, but a writer who is eager and working towards goals will almost always benefit greatly from pursuing formal education. The kicker is that most classes I've seen, there's maybe 2 or 3 students who even have a shot at doing anything with writing. Not because they're just naturally gifted and have something the other students don't, but because they're the ones trying to get everything possible out of any experience, whether it's sitting in a formal writing class or walking through a park, and are the ones who will have a chance at succeeding regardless of a degree, which then makes them perfect candidates to find even more success through a degree. While the other students are just putting of the inevitable. They don't have the drive or passion to make it, but don't want to give up, so they're skating along in a writing degree program, probably getting A's, which helps delude themselves from the fact they're putting in minimal effort and aren't really learning much, and then some day they'll wake up with a useless degree. Not because the degree is inherently useless, but because they thought it was inherently useful. As always, it's not the path one should focus on, but who travels on it. A writer with drive and passion will find education, whether it's formal, which can speed up such a writers progress immensely, or informal, which time and again has been proven to be just as good, as evidenced by the number of successful writers without formal training. The truth always remains that the education doesn't make the writer, the writer makes the education.
Not necessarily true in the U.S. at least. With Math, you can test out of lower level math classes, but since there isn't any such test for creative writing it's often just a sample and waiver situation. Sometimes, if you are a degree seeking student, they'll still want you to take the lower classes just to develop study skills and introduce/reintroduce one to the field, etc. But plenty of students get directly into upper division classes, especially if it's the only class they're wanting to take, by getting waivers. Many colleges even let undergraduates take graduate workshops under the same sample/waiver system. In the end, paying for and taking a single advanced fiction class (or any fiction class that is skill-level appropriate), ends up not being that expensive compared to most 'workshops,' though your use of the term is pretty loose so I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Many writing retreats or conferences, or even online workshops, can cost as much or more than a single 3 credit hour class, and last a lot less time, with a lot less focused attention and interaction with an instructor. I'll also mention there are no guarantees for success in writing. Not even close. So to even bring up that taking a fiction class isn't any more guarantee than self-educating is pretty inconsequential. All there is for a writer is continuing to learn and grown and hone their craft and develop their critical eye, all things a [good] fiction class will certainly help a writer do. It's easy to make the extreme arguments that formal writing education isn't worth it because it doesn't guarantee anything, but it's a bit limited in thinking, especially assuming anyone pursuing that is thinking it's some magical door. Again, there are no guarantees, so by that logic there's no guarantee by self-educating, thus it is also a waste of time. Now, granted, most writers in a classroom aren't going to make it. But, then again, most writers self-educating aren't either. If a writer is expecting any guarantees, might as well just quit now. And I would argue that for the writers who do have what it takes to make it, even a mediocre writing program may speed their development significantly, which doesn't guarantee a writer an ounce of success, but still may be worth the cost to many writers, as time, not money, is the currency of the writer.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned all of the free online writing courses and workshops. You'd be amazed at how many there are. Just do a Google search for "online writing courses" and you'll find the links. For self-directed learners, online study can be great, even more so for general higher education than for courses specifically designed for creative writing. However, there's a catch! Online learning doesn't work so well for those who've never developed good study habits and skills and for those who aren't well disciplined and highly motivated.
I don't think some of the views here necessarily represent reality. A high school education isn't even enough to guarantee good literacy these days (if the standards of UK and US schools are anything to go by). The difference in literacy between those of my classmates who went to university and those who didn't is quite pronounced. This is borne out on social networking sites every day. There are exceptions of course but they don't disprove the rule. For someone with an average high school education, to overcome these hurdles and surpass talented people who have also been to college/university would be quite a challenge. It's possible of course, just unlikely. Most successful novelists either have a degree or a career background in journalism, advertising or communications of some sort. As a child I was a ferocious reader and through to high school I was an 'A' student. However, it was only when I went to law school that I developed as a writer. The difference was night and day. I don't think this kind of experience can be discounted as I believe it is quite common. People don't go into thousands of pounds of debt for nothing.
I am a huge proponent of higher education ... if you can manage it. It will benefit you in your life far beyond the scope of writing. If that is not feasible for you then, for a writer, I believe it is far more important to be literate, in all respects (language, structure, syntax, grammar, etc.), than to have a degree. And that is something you cannot really get in college or university. Now, as far as learning a second language, of course, some sort of structured program is usually the best way to go. My first two second languages, I learned at university. After that, I learned on my own with dictionaries, flash cards, etc. and relying on native speakers. I complained to a Russian fellow once that I was having such a difficult time with his language and he merely laughed and told me, "Even Russian children have trouble. Don't try to do it all at once!" (Good advice, btw.) I even was given a gift of Doctor Zhivago and Other Collected Stories by Boris Pasternak by a Russian visitor. (Of course that was almost three years ago and I haven't made it through yet.) In any case, learning a second language is obviously a different set of circumstances than an all-encompassing college level structured education. Choose what fits you best.
THANK YOU! There have been times when I have wondered if I was the only person in the world who cared about basic literacy. Of course I know there are those here who have a fine grasp of language, spelling, etc. but it's always nice to have some reinforcement.
Not to mention that self-educating has a higher error rate than formal education in my opinion. Half the time, people learn things the WRONG way because there is just so much bad information out there. If you do not know how to properly discern information based on their legitimacy, don't' know which online sites to trust, don't know how to properly search and data mine for good information, you're really wasting a lot of your time. And it takes a long time to sort out the good from the bad.With formal education, at least there is that reliability and trust that it's coming from not only proper sources but is almost always on track with the current industry standards of the market. I honestly think it's invaluable. Not just in strictly for writing, but just in general that help you just become well developed. Your history classes, humanities, maths, data mining classes, IT classes. There is a reason why all degrees require core-basic classes that you think you will never ever use, but they are there because they truly help to give you a nice rounded set of skills.. It costs a lot of of money to set up college courses and the people that develop degree programs do intensive research on things that are necessary and things that can be substituted and all those basic classes that you think you don't need, are there for a reason and they are time tested to be true. But don't go into something blind and naive. Do your research. You'd be fooling yourself to major in creative writing and think that you can get high-paying job or even any job when you graduate unless you truly work hard. But with the degrees are set up these days, there is no reason why you can't fill all your electives with English/writing courses for a degree that is in a completely different field. Or you can minor in English, or even be a dual-major. Just don't discard it as not an option because of whatever reason. Keep your roads and options open, always.
The smartest person I've ever met is an autodidact. I'm not knocking schooling, but some people really are good at teaching themselves things. As to the vocabulary issue, I am confident (and cocksure) enough that my current vocabulary is at least as wide as that of the average recent college alum.
