Home schooling children is a completely different matter than self-educating as an adult. I agree that, for *young* people, going to college for any degree can be enriching as far as opening their minds to different ways of thinking. For older folks, just having lived longer should have done that. But for anyone, moving away from home, whether for work or school, will give them the opportunity to explore outside their safety zone. Whether they take advantage of that opportunity is up to them.
I wouldn't say homeschooling is completely different (i.e. the risk of compounding insular views is there in both scenarios). You've got a point regarding the age thing. For an adult with half a brain there comes a time when you realise the world is full of shades of grey and that your opinion isn't necessarily the right one. However, I have come across some middle aged people who have never had their prejudices challenged. It would be weird for *anyone* to go to university and not learn something.
I completely agree. It’s hard to quantify what exactly higher-education can give you because it develops and sharpens all your skills and strength on almost every level of your being simply by being immersed in a rigorous and diverse environment. Everything about you is at any given time assessed that you have to learn to adapt to foreign environments in a matter of seconds. It also a place in which everyone has expectations of you, so simply meeting yours isn’t enough. And while other environments outside of higher-education can provide the same things; the university system is specifically designed to enhance you and only you. You are the main product of a university system – it is not a degree, it is not your future successes, it’s you; anything else that comes out of it is a by-product, and that is the biggest difference.
I don't think the general life benefits of higher education are all that dependent on age. Change still occurs, just differently. It's just as easy to say young people would change anyway as they entered into adulthood, and that college wouldn't be necessary, as it would be to say older people wouldn't change from college as they'd already been changed. Err, if that makes sense. Basically, saying the personal or general life-changing benefits of college only matter to younger people is being selective in examples. The biggest change I've noticed (and laughed about) are the older, non-traditional students who have the perspective they've already learned so much from life that college will be a breeze and they won't change in their perspectives, etc. The first thing they learn is that they shouldn't have assumed they'd already learned all there was to learn about themselves or the world! Older people are often already set in their ways, or at least believe themselves to be, so the change from higher education is often more profound than the relative blank slate of youth as they often actively seek out new perspectives and are quicker to adapt to them. But, yeah, education theories aren't the point, I suppose. More to the point, I suppose, is that there's overwhelming evidence that higher education is beneficial to a person in just about every conceivable way. Even if it's just learning how to manage debt, eh. To answer the question about what type of degrees the best-seller's list authors had. 3 or 4 I believe were English/writing specific, which surprised me, actually. I expected all to have degrees, but not so specifically English studies. The fact is, in this day and age a college degree is like having a high school education back in the old days when kids were often pulled from school early to start trades or to work as farm hands, etc. I'm a firm believer in the values of education, but don't believe the main benefit of a Bachelor's degree is even career related anymore. It's value is in general life betterment sort of stuff, broadened horizons, new perspectives, general intelligence, learning to have and work toward goals, learning to study and how to apply oneself, etc. Graduate degrees are where people go for career training in almost all fields these days, including writing, which is often why an undergraduate degree in writing seems like a waste. It also seems like a waste to get a psychology degree, as that doesn't mean you now get to be a psychologist, etc. And why many graduate programs even in specific fields don't give a crap what your undergraduate degree was in as long as you pass the appropriate subject tests. One irony I always find interesting is the idea one can't afford college. It's a weird sort of system where those that can't afford it, often don't go, thinking they can't afford it, but not realizing they probably can as there are tons of systems of aid set up for those who can't afford it. The people who on paper can afford it are often the ones that take the biggest financial hit and in the end can't actually afford it.
I've never read more in my life than in college. And it was often stuff I wasn't predisposed to read, which at times was frustrating, but in the long run helped my writing (and myself as a person blah blah) more than self-guided reading, I believe. I'm the sort that reads things I don't 'like' just to study the craft, so my self-guided study is often far more broad than many people I know. But even still, the value of required reading in college is I was exposed to things I didn't even know would be beneficial, and that I would have rejected in my self-guided reading, because the benefits were often not apparent to me, but were very apparent to the instructor who had been using a text for years and seeing the long term benefits. So, imo, another point for formal education.
I've always taken an unpopular view on this topic, and I'm usually hated for it, but this is it: Writing is an academic pursuit. Writing takes years of doing in order to get really comfortable and confident with it (all kinds of writing: short stories meant for publication, articles meant for publication, journals, school papers, anything and everything). Successful fiction writers are typically educated people. Educated means they typically have at least a bachelor's degree (which is the first level of the "educated class"). It's not so much the degree you get (though I believe a broad liberal arts degree with an emphasis on literature and writing is the best), it's the discipline to be academically-minded that matters more than anything, and I don't know another way to become academically-minded without going to college. Anyone can write fiction. I know; I review a great deal of dreck written by "anyones." But to be successful at it, to be the kind of writer other people want to read, requires an academic mind (obtained by sticking out a bachelors degree program); it requires creativity (which comes from broad experience and curiosity), and it requires experience and confidence in writing English (obtained through writing for publication--whether you actually get published or not). Think about the editing you will have to do for an 80,000-word novel, the revision, the copyediting; non-scholastic people just aren't cut out for that kind of academic attention to detail. Of course, you can be like many self-published writers and not edit your work, but you won't be successful as a novelist. Again, this is only my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I feel it deserved to be aired. Good luck to you. e of g
Agreed that most people could find financing for college. Do not agree that that most people can afford it. Mainly because for many, particularly the non-traditional older student, the means of going is student loans. And those have to be paid back, whether or not that degree gets you a decent job. Yes, there are grants - for specific purposes, with specific criteria, for specific people. Yes, there are scholarships - mostly for those coming right out of high school, and again, very specific and often not very large. I'm really not dissing a higher education. I went to college right after high school (two, actually) and then went back to college some twenty years later (and am a thesis away from my masters). I made sure my son went to college and got his degree. But neither of us is working in the field we studied. And both of us (even though he got scholarships and grants) faced huge debts afterward. I just want people to look at college with their eyes wide open. It's expensive. A lot of the benefits depend on what school you go to, what professors you end up with, what classes you can get and when. And frankly, I've learned more about people in the years working than I did when at school, either time - mainly because college is an insulated environment. It's very easy to get so involved in the 'college world' that you forget there's an outside world - especially if the classes are demanding, as they should be. I had more 'real world' discussions with other non-traditional (and part-time) students than I did with any full-time traditional ones.
I personally think it's worth the effort to expand your education, but you don't necessarily need a degree in it. I have found that my degree in English (a B.A.) didn't do much to improve my creative writing, and my "advanced writing" class didn't really do much either. The writing instruction I received was too formulaic. However, I'm dying to improve my creative writing, and I've considered getting a certificate in creative writing. I think, though, it depends on where you go and what type of writing you want to achieve. If you're interested in a more literary fiction, certain programs are more geared toward that. If you're trying to understand how to write more popular fiction or just how to put together a basic short story that is not necessarily the type for a literary magazine, but more of a humor/crime fiction/fantasy type writing, then you may want to go somewhere else. For literary fiction, I considered the Stanford Continuing Studies program. For individual classes on short story writing or some other specific type of writing, I considered the University of Wisconsin continuing studies program that gives credit for individual classes. (non-degree applying, I think, but I'm not really sure.) Perhaps the biggest weakness in my education as a writer is how to approach the market itself. How to approach publishers, how to market my work, how to tailor my work for the publishing market, etc. I don't know anything about this, and I would find a class on popular fiction and short story markets/publishers/agents to be very beneficial as well as courses that will help me focus on getting out some publishable short stories. I'm glad that you're not giving up on your dreams just because you happened to make a few poor decisions early on in life. You're never too old to learn, and now that you have more respect for the benefits that a solid education can bring, I hope that you will continue to challenge yourself. I agree that it is an investment, but dreams deferred are horrible to live with.
I don't know about a writing specific major, that depends on the department and I personally feel that literature it taught to specifically toward books instead of the plethora of other forms writing takes. I will however strongly recommend you follow up on university or higher level education to benefit yourself as a writer. The more you know, the more you have to write about. Colleges offer so much, interesting people, new ideas, new prospects for life! It's an assortment of things that will make you a better writer, if only for the overload of new things you will experience. Background story (So you know were I'm coming from): I'm a student right now, beginning my third year. I have an interest in many forms of media. Film, animation, video games,comics, anything that can have a story or allows me to be creative. When I started, I was a business major playing with the idea of studying film. I looked into the programs offered at my school, and found that I didn't like them because they did not teach me what I wanted to learn. I took some general classes, and found that I enjoyed the thought process and LIMITLESS CREATIVE POTENTIAL of coding =). As a result I am a computer Science Game Design major, spending most of my free time working with the schools film clubs and friends involved in creative projects. Something my high school self probably would not have anticipated.
(I'm assuming we're talking about fiction writing.) Personally, I believe it's a combination of talent, hard work and knowing the structure and techniques of writing. I'm just wondering if the structure and techniques can be more effectively taught in a college class than by, for example, reading a short textbook on the subject and participating in online workshops. But since I've never taken a course in creative writing at college level, or even a course in language or humanities, I'm happy to hear from people with more experience. In my admittedly very limited experience, formal education tends to be somewhat inefficient with regards to time. Students who are on different levels have to wait for each other to catch up, some lecturers are very good at their subject but hard to understand, in group assignments, more time tends to be spent on dealing with group dynamics than on the subject matter, and so on. Is anyone arguing that self-education is better? I've taken most people's comments to mean that a college education makes too little difference for a fiction writer to be worth the cost and time, not that it's worse than self-education. I'd like to add that the chance of supporting yourself on fiction writing is so small, whichever route you take, that you may be better off studying for a day job and writing on the side. Like that British playwright who had so little education people still doubt he wrote his own plays... whatsisname...
Ok, so, I might as well admit it: I've got a BA in English and an MFA in creative writing. The best recommendation I can think of for doing an MFA? Sex! Your average MFA student is a tart! (Not that I'd know anything about that... ). But I digress... Bear this in mind when (if) you read my overly-long response so you know my bias (we all have some). There's so much to say in this interesting discussion, and from the start I want to make it clear that I have respect for both approaches (i.e., formal and self-taught). There is certainly lots of evidence to support each of these positions. I honestly can't say that someone without formal education cannot become a great writer. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. These are both very personal roads and depend on an given individual's character, love of knowledge and reading, powers of observation, personal experiences in life, etc. But, of course, I do have some opinions based on my own experience, naturally, and those of people I know. I think a traditional liberal arts eduction is invaluable, and by liberal arts I mean a broad-based program in which one has a major but also takes courses in other subjects (as in the American system) and not one in which the "major" subject forms the student's entire curriculum (the English system). In Sundae's words: Yes, a formal eduction is its own reward. I hate the contemporary situation whereby we think of higher education as the path to a job, and apply a kind of financial investment vs. financial rewards analysis to it. The intense exposure to other ideas, discipline and rigor of a formal eduction can open so many new possibilities. Yes, it's not the only way to go... working in a factory or an office, a shop, a bar, etc, can teach you things that a degree program can't (and doesn't promise). By the same token, falling in love, being rejected, going to prison, having a baby, an affair, a divorce, a family reunion, a bad, stinking day--these form our education as well, and can't be replaced. Higher education is just another one of many experiences, but it's one in which your entire focus, your job, if you will, for four years is to immerse yourself in an environment dedicated to learning; to learn under mentors dedicated to teaching you, and talented, and sometimes clueless, peers (you can learn from both kinds!). As for my own experience (and, mind, this is just me): I started university in a completely different subject than my eventual degree. My exposure to the first discipline taught me that it wasn't for me, something I needed to learn. When I switched to English, I concentrated on American poetry and creative writing (poetry writing), but also took courses in the 19th century novel, children's lit, early English poetry and so on, not to mention biology and all the other general requirements. In my case, it made me a larger person. Then, and this is probably key, I took six years off during which I worked in many different kinds of jobs: banking (ick), teaching, administration, record store manager, delivery driver, among others. Truth is I never kept a job for more than a year, some less than that. I floundered, but I learned so much this way. I continued to write poems, but as the years progressed fewer and fewer. Then I took a creative writing class at a local university. It was a beginners' class. And though I'd taken many advanced poetry-writing classes, I thought this one would be good because it was half poetry and half fiction-writing. I'd never written fiction and was curious. This class changed my life. Writing my first short story, everything just sort of fell into place. And the approbation I got from my teacher and peers--to have my efforts validated and critiqued--was something I sorely needed. You see, I'd lost faith in myself during those years of work. After writing some more stories, repeating the exhilaration I felt with the first one, I did an MFA in fiction writing. I did it mostly for the writing-time it would give me, but receiving (often harrowing!) critiques on my work and, perhaps more importantly, critiquing the works of others taught me so much more in two years than I could have learned on my own. In short, it saved time and gave me time, it helped me develop as a writer. I was also fortunate to get a teaching fellowship and taught writing to undergrads. Teaching is one of the best ways to learn! My students taught me as much, if not more, than I taught them. But Lightman, you are exceptionally articulate and wise for your age. You have good reason for you "cocksurety". I see what university students write (I'm still teaching, but in a different subject). Oh my lord! It's not just that they struggle to write intelligible sentences, but that they don't know how to think, how to have original ideas, to think critically. Maybe this is more acute in the UK (where I'm currently based), where students these days are increasingly taught to take tests rather than think for themselves? Hard to say. But the point is, you are waaay ahead of the curve. I've no doubt that whether you choose higher ed or not you'll be well educated. You already are! English-writing course is a good idea. I've been to the Netherlands, however, and most of the Dutch people I met there spoke better English than native speakers, including me! You may be farther ahead than you think. Hee hee! True! So, back t DBTate's original question: Obviously there's more than one way to skin a cat. But here are a couple of recommendation which may help you, whatever you decide: --Read "The Triggering Town" by poet Richard Hugo. He focuses on poetry, not fiction, but most of his advice can apply to all writing. He also gives an interesting defense of creative writing programs, which is worth reading (one of his defenses is that they pay his salary!). Hugo was a gifted teacher and if nothing else the book exemplifies what a good writing teacher can do. --For grammar, etc, read Strunk and White's Elements of Style. It's an oldie but goodie. I break their "rules" all the time, but it's always good to go back and refresh myself on some fundamentals. SORRY so long! It's a subject that's near and dear.
i probably said it earlier, but it bears repeating... to write good fiction, one only needs to have a good solid grounding in the basics of grammar [taught/learned in grade school, reinforced in high school], not any college degrees... the one thing that is a vital necessity is READING!... reading constantly, the best writing by the best writers since writing became an art... concentrating especially, on the genres you want to write in... and occasionally reading lesser quality work, so you can learn to tell the difference...
I totally agree, Mamma. But different people thrive in different paths. I wouldn't argue with your position (and I don't think I did). There are no absolutes here--an important point to make. Also, few of us stay in school forever. At some point we're all on our own, in the big bad world, and you're right: reading is the vital thing. Just as dancing, truck-driving, teaching, playing in a band, playing rugby, nursing an elder are all a part of our education and also contribute to our writing selves.
I agree with Mamma here. All you really need is the basics up to about a high school education. I never got any BA or MFAs or WTF there is out there. But I was able to get two books out there and an agent for my third, so go figure. Your best friend is persistance. Keep forging through, keep reading (like Mamma says too) and keep learning. That's basically it in a nutshell.
For a lot of people, it's harsh reality. If they have to take loans to get through college, and still don't get a decent job, they'll be even worse off financially.
This is demonstrably false. Doris Lessing, Nobel Prize for Literature. Dropped out of school at 14. William Faulkner, Nobel Prize for Literature. Left school as a boy and apparently didn't like formal education at all. Jack Kerouac - dropped out of college when football didn't pan out. Terry Pratchett - (and speaking of writers people want to read, he has sold over 65 million books worldwide in thirty-seven languages and is the second most widely-read author in the UK). No college degree. Holly Lisle, who has sold many novels over the years, doesn't have a degree and she addresses this very topic here: http://hollylisle.com/experts-professionals-and-college/ Christopher Paolini (say what you like, you can't deny plenty of people want to read his work) had only a high school education when he published Eragon, if I'm not mistaken. Not sure if he went on to college. There are others, among them commercially successful authors, Nobel Prize winners, etc. So the proposition that to be successful at writing, or to be a writer that people want to read requires an "academic mind" obtained through a bachelor's degree program appears to me to be disproven by reality.
This all too true. You're right, it's the harsh reality. In the UK it's about to get harsher still when the new fees start. Frankly, I don't know how people are going to afford it. Sad fact is, many can't. And yet then they're told "Oh, you need a degree to get a good job." It's a sad situation over here. That said, I do agree that a degree isn't necessary to become a great writer. Or even get into an MFA program. One of my classmates had no college education but lots of experience. He was such a good writer that the program made an exception. There was red tape involved with the uni, but they managed it. My point about the purpose of eduction is, admittedly, an idealistic one. I just wish we could get back to the idea that education is important in more crucial ways than simply getting a job. But I know this isn't how people live today.
When I started school some fifty years ago, we were taught the rudiments of good English at primary school. We were taught the correct use of apostrophes, and how and when to use commas, semicolons, colons and full stops. We were taught how to set out dialogue in a story. Our written work, whether fiction or non-fiction, was corrected for both spelling and grammar, and our marks reflected the correctness of our writing. I went on to secondary school and university, but in neither was I taught significantly more about the use of English. It really isn't the job of universities to teach people to write basic Engloish. I wouldn't say that I'm in any way an expert in English grammar, but I can write correctly constructed sentences. I did learn some further grammar at secondary school through French and, more partcularly, German, which in my day were taught in the old-fashioned way with the emphasis on grammar, verbs and vocabulary. I wish I'd had the opportunity to study Latin, but sadly I had to choose between Latin and Science. It seems that children are no longer taught to write in correct English at primary school. I am not sure that younger primary school teachers are even equipped to teach or correct English. To my mind, this is a travesty. My personal experience suggests that you do not need a university degree to write well. You just need a good primary education. As to what's happening in higher education in the UK, I think we are about to witness meltdown. It is not going to take people long to work out that a degree in Waffle from the University of Plod is worth tiddly-squat, and certainly not worth £60,000 (tuition plus living costs) which is what prospective students are now faced with. One in four call centre workers in the UK has a university degree. We will see the lesser univerisities going to the wall, and students will be left high-and-dry in the middle of their courses. I advised my own children that if they couldn't get a place to do a solid academic subject at one of the top 20 universities, it wasn't worth going.
Let me just highlight this advice by Holly Lisle on its own. It is worth reading. Do Writers Need College to Write? http://hollylisle.com/experts-professionals-and-college/
I think you're confusing cause and effect. As I have just said in my other post, I think it's the job of primary schools to teach children how to write good English. Those children who learn quickly and become proficient will often be the ones to go on into Higher Education and get university degrees. It's not Highter Education that has taught them how to write well.
I doubt it's going to be a meltdown since it's been happening for a while now and there's not many alternatives. Ten years ago I used to lecture at a university (that I'm not going to name) and left after becoming disillusioned with the state of education (on so many levels - I taught subjects I learnt at A-level, we effectively gave away degrees to ensure department rankings, numbers of students increased tenfold, courses were designed for spoon-fed learning by rote thanks to the SATs). Students had no interest in learning - they were there because without a degree you can't get a job. Fortunately we co-operated by handing it to them on a plate. Now the final twist of the knife is that they have to pay large amounts of money for 'tuition fees' - effectively an entrance payment to a mediocre career (not that you can afford a house anyway). That's a derail, but I strongly believe that a university education will offer you nothing other than a socially exciting time. You definitely don't need it to write (but you do need it for a job, so don't duck out of it because you're going to be a rich novelist!)
I dropped out of high school and then went back to community college for art (which I am good at--or, at least, used to be good at). Eventually I transferred to a university as an English major with the hope that I would learn how to write better. My uni doesn't have almost any writing courses--it's all analyzing literature. Analyzing literature (as an English major) is fun and all, and I think the experience of reading can really help, but I don't think my lit courses really helped my creative writing. Almost all of my writing was formal argument--which is very different from fiction writing. One of the really cool things about being an English major is having access to the college library which is really good for research. It also helped me to learn how to look for themes and alternative readings of literature. I love the university setting and I don't think you should let your previous experience with high school put you off of higher education. But I agree that you really don't need a degree to write. A community college will have sufficient grammar or creative writing classes for you to further your writing, IMO. I'm still missing some important grammar skills because I missed them in high school, and they don't re-teach them in the university. I have to continually teach myself. Also, there are writing conferences and writing groups you could join. Some of my favorite authors don't hold degrees in language. College is great though. You might really like it. Edit: Steerpike, thanks for the list of successful authors earlier in the thread. It's encouraging. Edit: Also, I just want to say that there are lots of reasons why people don't do well in school. You (anyone) shouldn't automatically assume it's because they don't enjoy learning or are not smart (or don't have an academic mind). I agree that there are plenty of small minded (sometimes rich) kids in the universities who don't care about anything but getting a ticket to higher income. But there are also plenty of intelligent people that thirst for knowledge and didn't get a degree.
I might not be a good one to comment (*cough*notpublished*cough*), but I personally believe that all you can really get from school is the basics...grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. In my honest opinion, things such as creativity and the ability to put together interesting, captivating sentences are the types of things that are more attributed to natural talent than learned skills. As for my own personal experience, I have a normal high school diploma with an emphasis on sciences, and I took a technical trade in university. From the moment I graduated high school until this moment approximately 10 years later, the most education I have as far as "writing" is in how to properly write a cover letter and resume. That said, I've been given many compliments on my writing style and my personal style of descriptive writing, so I do tend to feel that my writing abilities are more talent than anything. (Modesty...ha ha ha!)
You don't need to know musical theory to be able to play guitar, but it helps with creative expression and, most importantly, understanding. I think with the right teacher, creativity certainly can be taught, or encouraged, at the very least. And education also helps a person become more aware of the achievements of others, and that in turn can foster creative competition among peers. But if you think you can enroll in a college writing program and emerge a brilliant writer just by meeting the requirements, you're dreaming. As with everything, you get what you give.
