Emotional about your characters?

Let's not forget my dear, faleena Hopkins also sells books, well, until this whole dumbass scheme with her trademark ordeal. And she left it alone to be just fine and rolling in the dough.

I guess cool structuring sells better since it's familiar to people.

I'm sorry what? How is cooking a souffle the same as World building. How is a bowl of chicken soup the same as one of my characters?

 

I think the disconnect here is coming from how either of us is defining the word "care" within the context of the conversation. When I say I don't care about my character, I'm saying (again) that they don't inhabit a space of real people. They are pieces with a job. Real people are not pieces with a job.
Empathy, however, is not the same thing as caring, and I don't have empathy for my characters as real people. I care about what they do in a story, and I care about what that story says to real people. I have plenty of empathy for real people, something my real life job is essentially contingent upon.

 

I'm honestly not that passionate about writing, myself - I was thinking about other people who are.

But, in general terms - Why would this passion be focused just on the characters? I think there are some people on this forum, some writers in general, who are passionate about their prose. That's what they're most interested in, that's what they slave over. It might be really hard for one of them to cut out a treasured line that didn't fit in where they had it. Other people are clearly passionate about their setting or their concepts (the hard scifi crowd, for example). They may or may not care much about their characters. Some people are passionate about their characters. Fair enough. Lots of variety.

A more literary, prose-is-everything kind of writer might be completely baffled by a writer with a workmanlike attitude toward prose. For me, the words are just there to get the job done and I don't fall in love with them or even think about them very much, as long as they seem to be doing their job. Are you as baffled by that as you are about my workmanlike attitude toward characters?

This may come down to the old "is writing an art or a craft" argument. For me, it's absolutely a craft. I'm not an artistic person and don't have a lot of patience for what I see as artistic conceits. I want to write books that do their job well. That's all.

My books aren't an expression of my inner self. They're just made-up stories.

 

You know another thing this thread is making me realize, is that a person without formal literary training as I just learned as I went, so I'm sure my grammar is atrocious to some of you here. I find it somewhat of a blessing,

 

Okay. Sure.

I get deeply attached to my characters. I don't understand how other writers can remain detached.

That's okay, though. I don't need to understand Bayview, or John-Wayne, or Linz. It's their emotions. I believe them when they say "this is how it works for me."

 

I get that. I was trying to make that distintion too. But empathy is caring. True not the same way as real people but why is it needed to draw a line in the sand to say you don't care about your characters? Why can't you just care about both in different ways?

Yes! ALL THE PASSION! Hopefully modestly dusted around. I mean in your phrasing you hit the nail on the head for me. With

"They may or may not care much about their characters"

"much"

If you said you loved the setting or the feedback with the audience or the prose more than the characters I can get that. But no love? No care? No nothing?

But yeah I guess we have that different idea. Stories are very important to me. Though I don't think I am anti work a nail in my work. I mean. Heck best example. In one story I created a girl to die. The reason she existed was to die. That feels very work a nail type thinking. But the passion I developed from the situation she created was so very real and so very strong and one of the two times I cried. Again not advocating crying but some feel. I find it difficult that you can work the nail very well if you don't have any feel.

True but if I just said "we agree to disagree" then there wouldn't be much of a conversation. I mean if they don't want to continue thats fine. And if I hit a point of not wanting to continue thats fine. But no reason to stop talking if both parties are curious about the other. Right?

 

So just a cold nine to five, this is how I make my living.

My primary interest is not to make money off my writing. It would be nice and maybe I can look forward to making money off my writing. But my primary goal right now is to write, write and then write some more. Getting the world and the characters that live in it on paper.

 

Wow, this thread got wild.

@GuardianWynn, I wonder if you are (maybe unconsciously) feeling defensive because there's an attitude in some writing circles that people who get attached to their characters are amateurs who write Mary Sues, and the true professionals are detached and emotionless, viewing their characters as tools. I know that attitude annoys me whenever I run into it. However, I think it's the minority view, and I don't really see people in this thread spouting it.

I just don't understand what there is to get worked up about. This is so low-stakes. It's not like people are saying "Oh yeah, I have children, but I don't really love them. I still feed them though so what's the big deal?" Like, this has no effect on you or any other living person. It really doesn't matter.

 

Not sure I'd say defensive but I can see what ya mean. I dunno. I am passionate when it comes to most things. Even discussions. If I actually thought it mattered I wouldn't react. If I think there is nothing to be gained but banging my head against the keyboard. I'll avoid it. Perhaps my knowledge expands. Perhaps someone else's does either way is fun for me

 

I think I'm going to have to agree with @Spencer1990 that we're using the word "care" differently. I "care" about my prose, my setting, my characters, my themes, my plots, my covers, my typesetting, my marketing campaigns, my sales numbers... like, I pay attention to these things and work to make them effective. But I don't "care" about them like I feel affection for them or an emotional connection to their "emotions". Different meanings of "care".

 

Yay!

I don't feel affection for every character. I feel it for quite a number sure but I was never trying to argue for affection towards characters. That's just a case by case type thing.

I have a character that set fire to a child. I enjoy the reaction he can get from people but I don't feel affection towards him. I'd honestly be scared of myself if I did. Lol

 

Works the other way around, too, Spence. I have lots of empathy for my characters but no passion for the writing part. I despise the actual writing part. The writing part is a task. That's not where the fun and passion are in it for me at all, but I put up with the writing part to have the parts I like. ETA: I'm sure some of the no-empathy for the characters people are just as horrified as some of the pro-empathy writers were previously.

 

Wish I could double like. We should so chat some times. Sorry a bit loopy. About to sleep.

 

Feeling empathy is not the same thing as caring. I don't have to feel empathy for fictional people to care about how they fit into my story. It also doesn't hinder any expression of emotion, and neither does having empathy for them for someone who does. And, to the bolded portion, I think I've stated numerous times the parts of fiction that I do care deeply about.

Here's the best example I can come up with:

I write a Character A who loves Character B. Character B will never love Character A in the same way. (Unrequited love.) I can write this convincingly because I've experienced it. I can imbue my story with the necessary emotion. Character A can cry, self-destruct, turn to alcohol, shove it down, whatever, right? Does that mean I have to pine for Character B in the same way Character A does? No. Does it mean that I have to be sad for Character A? No. I'm not sad for the character. I'm not emotionally affected by what the character does in the story. I'm invested in the story itself. I'm invested in and passionate about conveying those emotions. There is no empathy in the characters in that, for me.

I'm curious why you think people are getting worked up about this? I haven't really seen any sort of flaming or otherwise negativity. I'm just seeing a conversation with more than one side.

 

That isn't how it works, though. This isn't "agree to disagree." Some writers don't care about their characters. You're saying you do. Okay. Neat. You can discuss that all day.

But you're sitting here arguing with people about how they're "wrong." You insist they must get emotionally attached to their characters. So far you've suggested they're lying, they're misunderstanding the question, or they're refusing to admit they have emotions.

Wynn, that makes no sense. Imagine if someone said they didn't like chocolate cake and you spent fifteen minutes trying to convince them they misunderstood the question. Do you see what I'm saying?

Maybe I just see it differently. I'm childfree, and I regularly have people try to convince me I actually do want children (because they want children literally can't understand why I don't). It's not "agree to disagree."

I'm not offended, I'm just trying to explain.

Either way, I'm (respectfully) bowing out. Today is my off day and I'm supposed to be writing smut, not arguing with folks online. Get some sleep!

 

Telling people they're doing something wrong, when there is no objective right or wrong, and suggesting they might be lying or mistaken about their own emotions, strikes me as pretty negative.

 

Sure. That's certainly a valid process for you. There's nothing wrong with it. In fact, if you're happy with it, I'm happy for you. My point is that because this position is valid, it doesn't invalidate another position. The point I'm arguing is the oft-mentioned (in this thread): "If you don't feel for your characters, you can't convey the emotion to the reader." That's twelve pounds of bologna.

I've been saying this entire conversation that both positions are valid and the validity of either doesn't remove it from the other. Just like: italics for thoughts or not, first-person vs third-person, plotting vs pantsing (we still need another term for this), uniform chapter length or not, omniscient vs limited third, etc., etc. There isn't a right or wrong side of any of that. I'm discussing these things because it's interesting and because I do my best thinking about things when I'm writing about them.

 

I have actually argued that thing about cake to someone but I fairness this was because they ate chocolate cake and enjoyed it just a week earlier and forgot.

I suppose my position isn't that I think they are lying exactly. But I find the notion of quality questionable from a stance of no connection. Which is a debatable topic I think. Obviously people can have varried connections but that's different than no connection.

If that makes sense. Really probably should sleep lol

 

^That is the rub. I don't think Wynn is trying to be rude, it's just that some arguments are... like... intrinsically a little bit rude.

Okay. I'm really going to stop and get back to writing now.

 

That's fair. I see what you're saying. I hope I'm not expressing any negativity! That's certainly not my intent.

 

This is an interesting argument. You're saying "no connection", but what you mean is "not the exact same connection I have and feel." Do you see the logical flaw in that? I've said, again, numerous times that I have a connection to my fiction, a very deep connection. It doesn't manifest in the same way as yours, but it's there for me, real and palpable.

 

Yeah, I mean, if you guys are still enjoying the discussion, carry on of course! I didn't mean to sound like I was coming in and telling everyone to shut it down. I was just perplexed.

I do enjoy a good argument, but usually only the ones I start myself.

 

It would be boring if we all felt the same.

I love seeing the passion in others in different ways than my own.

Just an advocate for the notion that passion is always gonna have an edge over non passion. And to be clear. Not saying a style of passion is better than an other. I love that you have passion in your work!

Someone who has passion in a different way than me is someone I would love to team up with. To try and join strengths to create a product better than the sum of it's parts.

 

I am determined (probably to a fault) to be able to disagree with other people without disliking, hating, or creating negative feelings about them. That is one of my ultimate goals in life, and I don't really know why.

 

Normally I don't get that invested in my characters, but
for Renegade they were literally all I had after I got divorced.
So they are kinda 'real' for me. The mind does weird things
to cope when life becomes a shit show.

Other than that, I just write people (and other species), without
completely getting involved beyond simply creating interesting
characters that do all sorts of stuff.