Existentialist fiction?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by Neo, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    But then it's ultimately a nihilistic story, not an existential one. If I wrote a story about a priest with a firm belief in Jesus Christ who in the end renounces all faith and becomes an atheist, then it's not a Christian story but an atheist one.

    Existentialism and nihilism are not nearly the same thing. While existentialism denounces belief in absolutes in a similar way, that's only the basic foundation of the philosophy. Kierkegaard and others stressed that with the denial of absolute values follows a responsibility to find your own values. That part is absolutely critical.

    I see it as a philosophy that goes all the way in making us all fully responsible for our own lives, rather than throwing it into the hands of higher powers, be they earthly or heavenly. It's not just abstract masturbation for pseudo-intellectuals... It's a very real and very relevant attempt to address the profound problem of modern life, where many people have lost faith in absolute good and evil, or faith in god. Ultimately, existentialism is a positive philosophy.

    Nihilism on the other hand, is the "dark side" of the basic principles these two philosophies share - that if nothing has absolute value, then nothing ever will have any value and life is therefore utterly pointless. Nihilism offers no solution, and is the last philosophy you embrace before you jump off a cliff.

    NaCI: I believe your experience is true, but I wouldn't put the blame on the existential philosophy because of it. People like the ones you describe exist within the following of ALL philosophies, and within all kinds of science and religion as well. People who've spend a bit too much time around likeminded and a bit too little time around everyone else. It just gets more and more absurd from then on... I'm as much disgusted by their pretentious, pseudo-intellectual masturbation as everyone else. They do poor credit to their craft, because some philosophers are actually able to present this stuff on a real and relevant level, using plain language and examples that aren't abstract. I think those are the ones who actually understand the stuff.
     
  2. Neo

    Neo Member

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    Thank you very much - it's very useful advice :)

    So really I need to be amoral (as opposed to immoral or moralistic) in my writing, and focus on "**** happening" as opposed to some kind of intricate destiny.

    My idea for a post-apocalyptic storyline has the characters eventually "saved" from their isolation in a depopulated UK by being interred in a camp in some god-forsaken third world country which is dealing with an influx of fleeing millions from virus-hit countries. This camp is pretty much sealed from the outside world and becomes a neat microcosm for the world in general - a meaningless world full of relativistic and immaterial norms, mores and regulations which are more psychological constructs than universal laws (does that all sound a bit postmodern?).

    I'm not after a major, deep-and-meaningful existential basis, I just wish to make existentialism a guiding theme.
     
  3. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    Another hallmark of Existentialism is the idea that humans are Nothing, whereas objects (such as tables, apples, etc.) have Being. Hence the name of Sartre's magnum opus.

    Sartre then goes on to claim that assigning traits to a human always robs them of their freedom. The classic, and simplest, example is that of the Waiter. If he chooses to perform the task of waiting, he will inevitably think of himself as a Waiter, with the functions that a Waiter is expected to have, rather than a whole human with the option to determine his own actions - he has reduced himself to Being, and thus is no longer free.

    Sartre also claims that the expectations or perceptions of others can have a similar effect. If somebody views you as 'just a waiter', for example, then they have likewise reduced you to Being and stolen your freedom by assigning to you traits, which Sartre claims cannot be attached to humans because humans are inherently able to change how they act. Of course, physical traits are similar in that they are unknowable by the ages-old cogito argument. This is the true meaning of the oft-repeated, somewhat nihilistic-sounding "Hell is other people."

    So, in short: Humans are Nothing, objects have Being, to attempt to assign traits to Nothing is to reduce it to Being and rob it of freedom.
     
  4. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    So what does that leave in the box labeled "freedom"? "Nothing"?

    I dunno. There are certain things I think I understand about what existentialism might refer to. But inevitably somewhere along the way I lose a grasp of that meaning. I think it's because it is not an absolute philosophy at all, but a way of thinking about philosophical notions. That's why I find it complicated. Also, I don't know why anyone who doesn't have a clear picture of what existentialism is all about--at least their own perspective--would want to design a story that's "existential" or, for that matter, what they would mean by that (unless they just want to see the word used on the book cover, or something).
     
  5. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    "Nothing" is actually the lack of defining features that an object possesses, which Sartre claims makes humans distinct from objects. Freedom is the ability to display a number of features and to nonetheless make choices independently of them, which is where the idea that Existentialism allows one to forge one's own 'meaning of life' comes from.
     
  6. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    Fascinating description. I can almost wrap my mind around that. The concept of existentialism seems complicated (to me) because the language it takes to understand it seems more elusive than the concept itself.

    I'm reading THE PLAGUE right now, and so (now that we're talking about existentialism) I'm trying to filter this story through an existentialist prism (assuming that Camus is an existentialist writer). I haven't yet finished it, but it strikes me that in this novel, there is an de-evolution of meaning (to life) brought about by the circumstances the townsfolk are experiencing. That strikes me as nihilistic, in a sense. Or is it the growing realization that death is the only truly inevitable relief that dictates the meaning one gives to it (and so, there are as many such "meanings" as there are people who have them?) Or is this really an example of existentianlism at all?

    I think if I'd thought of it as existential (and I hadn't exactly), it would be because it's a nonjudgemental account of the experience of the characters within the story. But maybe, instead, it's because the "world" of the participants is growing smaller and, as a consequence, is objectifying the people who populate it (but doesn't that create something other than an existentialist viewpoint on Camus' part?).

    Or maybe (more likely) I'm overthinking it.:confused:
     
  7. ojduffelworth

    ojduffelworth New Member

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    ….that philosophy as a fundamental truth
    Existentialism is anything but a philosophy of fundamental truth!
    Plato was concerned with fundamental truths…

    Here is my existential question for each of you. Do you really exist?
    An existential question would be, ‘What is your personal reaction to your own existence?’
    If you want to debate existence itself, you are better to delve into the work of philosophers apart from existentialists. Descartes comes to mind: ‘I think therefore I am’

    Kierkegaard and others stressed that with the denial of absolute values follows a responsibility to find your own values. That part is absolutely critical.
    Good point. Only I would suggest existentialism allows for a failed attempt to find adequate personal values. It does not presume an individual will succeed.
    existentialism allows for an individual to adopt nihilism!
    I have not read much Kierkegaard, but to me he seems a bit intellectly dishonest. Its kind of like he says ‘in seeking my own beliefs in a world devoid of god, I have decided to believe in god.’ -
    Or, “in seeking my own meaning in a world devoid of meaning, I have found meaning.” I hope that makes sense!
    -just my ill informed take on him. Probably way off the mark!

    Ultimately, existentialism is a positive philosophy.
    I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. I think it is simply about the attempt to find personal meaning in a universe that in all likelihood is ultimately meaningless. ( stress – not a debate about existence itself).
    It does not set out to be positive or negative.
    Ultimately, I would tend to say existentialism is nihilistic. But your opposing view is equally valid.


    The concept of existentialism seems complicated (to me) because the language it takes to understand it seems more elusive than the concept itself.
    I think that puts the nail on the head! Existentialism is a simple concept- the individuals search to find meaning in a world without absolute meaning. From that simple concept, any amount of complicated concepts and debate may arise.
    To me existentialism has similarities with Buddhism – in its ‘purest’ form!

    THE UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS OF BEING. Care to write a review about it.
    I’ll just quote what I think is a key paragraph:
    “He remained annoyed with himself until he realized that not knowing what he wanted was actually quite natural…
    We can never know what to want, because, living only one life, we can neither compare it with out previous lives nor perfect it in our lives to come…there is no means to testing which decision is better, because there is no basis for comparison.”

    Is it positive, or negative? Is it Nihilistic?
    Either way, I really relate to that.
    Sometimes in life we are forced to make major decisions without knowing the consequences. Ironic to read the above now, as I just posted something in the non-fiction section for review dealing with this…
    Anyhow I’m glad you made me dig out the quote, gives me something….
     
  8. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    Sartre believed that existentialism was inherently an optimistic approach.
     
  9. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    I sometimes have fleeting thoughts of taoism, too.


    Me, too. And, yes, I remember this nugget. To me, it was more like a mine field of great little nuggets. I just wasn't sure about the "overall" that went with it.


    To Delphinus:

    I'm glad to know that, because I'm, by nature, an optimist, myself. And there is something magnetic to me about the notion of (what I think of as) an existentialist approach (to lots of things, really). Still, I'm not clear on whether and how that discounts the possibility of the exact same approach leaning heavily toward nihilism, in spite of the fact that such isn't the conclusion I draw out of experiential thinking myself.
     
  10. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

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    Since everyone seems to have effectively covered the basics (as well as correcting the misnomer tenets (concepts/teachings) vs tenants (people who rent, lease, or otherwise occupy property by leave of that property's owner)) I just wanted to add a weblink I thought might help you a bit.

    Good luck.

    http://www.arielspeaks.com/Philosophy/Existentialsm_Definition.html
     
  11. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    That was my point too - that because existentialism offers actual, practical and workable solutions to the problem of pointlessness, opposed to nihilism that does not, existentialism is a positive philosophy. The sense of abandonement is only a prelude to the recognition that ethical values can be grounded from within a reflective understanding of the conditions under which individuals can attain authenticity in their lives (abandonement, according to existentialism). Angst is considered an obstacle in the transition, not a permanent state.

    Existentialism allows for an individual to adobt any philosophy. Whether they're really existentialists after doing so, is another matter.

    Kierkegaard was a christian all the way. While he technically wasn't a pure existentialist since the concept wasn't coined during his lifetime, existentialism doesn't require being atheist. Sartre was, and of course that affects his contributions. Kierkegaard proposed that you can be a christian while renouncing the doctrines of the bible and religious authorities, and similarly to the existential approach to other subjects, it would be the religious man's own personal responsibility to find meaning and guidelines within their faith. Whether that really works I couldn't say, as I'm not religious myself.
     
  12. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    Existentialism allows you to be Christian, but not to identify yourself as Christian or to follow (rather than be merely influenced by) any of the fundamental precepts of Christianity, since that would be a form of bad faith; you and other people would then think of yourself as the object 'Christian' and deny your freedom. ;)
     
  13. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    I think this discussion about existentialism (which has always been similar, in my recollection) shows pretty clearly why it's a difficult and complicated, sometimes slippery concept. I don't find it moot to think about all these divergent notions, myself, though I realize there are plenty of folks who probably find it entirely pointless. I don't think the discussion about existentialism is simply an exercise in self-importance, as some have suggested, but a matter of understanding how a very real notion of meaning and truth can flavor something like fiction (and I think it certainly does). I really appreciate some of these insights, although some I'm still struggling to integrate. I trust the original poster has made his decision about whether and how to write a story that incorporates existentialist tenets (I'm thinkin' he probably won't be able to avoid it). ;)
     
  14. ojduffelworth

    ojduffelworth New Member

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    it would be the religious man's own personal responsibility to find meaning and guidelines within their faith.
    Well that would kind or render the rules and guides of the Bible obsolete in my mind then.
    - or anyother religious texts dictaing codes of conduct and so on...

    Kierkegaard was a Christian all the way

    If you don’t follow the word of the Bible, why claim to be a Christian?
    Like I said, I think Kierkegaard was intellectually dishonest. Either he could obey Biblical doctrine, and be a Christian, or he could live by his own persuasions. The two things are mutually exclusive in my mind, though maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

    Anyhow, I don’t know much about the chap…
     
  15. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    Well, there's an established concept of Christian Existentialism. Kierkegaard himself founds it on a paradox, but less extreme views, ones that are predominantly christian and only then existentialistic in their approach to interpreting the words of the bible, exist. Basically they're saying that the bible is not a collection of objective truths that stand outside and above the individual, but rather exist as a guide for the individual to seek their own truths within. I'd consider it a - if nothing else - more liberal form of christianity that rejects attempts at bible-bashing, finger-pointing and other (sadly frequent) acts of religious condemnation.
     
  16. DragonGrim

    DragonGrim New Member

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    I was wondering if the op really meant existentialism.

    I have done some research on existentialism and found that it pretty much means nothing to a modern reader. The term was created long after the “movement,” and I don’t think it could catch the interest of the modern reader. Its stress of individual responsibility is anything but unique. Also, most people now think of people as the sum of their experiences. The rest of the philosophy is just random compilation of how certain philosophers think people should view human existence.

    nihilism, on the other hand, is very relevant in today’s world, and it actually makes sense, though I disagree with the concept. The lack of a cohesive meaning to existentialism has caused many people to use the word interchangeably with nihilism. So I think it is possible that the terms are being confused. I know I’m guilty of it.

    Nihilism is explored in all sorts of ways in fiction. Usually the writer is making an argument against nihilism. Movies too – it’s standard practice in Hollywood to assign morality to characters. Lord of the Rings would be the ultimate story against it: Frodo’s destiny, and the stark contrast of good and evil. Science fiction may move further toward nihilism, but when I think of the big ones such as Star Trek and Star Wars, they sure didn’t. In fact Star Wars was almost the same as LotR, and Star Trek refers to the existence of a creator quite often.

    But I would classify “I Robot” as a nihilistic story. It makes direct arguments against philosophic arguments for the existence of a god – though I think it was an argument that dodged some of the most relevant points. Also, the computers become more human than human.
     
  17. ojduffelworth

    ojduffelworth New Member

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    Well, there's an established concept of Christian Existentialism. Kierkegaard himself founds it on a paradox,
    Then I would then say he is using the word ‘paradox’ in place of the word ‘hypocracy’.

    Basically they're saying that the bible is not a collection of objective truths that stand outside and above the individual, but rather exist as a guide for the individual to seek their own truths within.
    …so if you are using something only as a guide, I take it one is open to using any document as a guide, so long as they find it personally relevant? Why not take every religious text as a guide, after all, there must be some good points in each of them? Why limit yourself to the Bible? Why call yourself a Christian? Was Kierkegaard’s mind close to other religious texts?
    Still I don’t get it – either you believe the Bible is the word of God, and you are a Christian, and you live accordingly -- or you believe otherwise…If you are just going to believe the bits of a religion that you find personally convenient, and disregard the rest, then you are not really following the tenants of that religion at all.
     
  18. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    No, being a christian is essentially believing that Christ represented divinity in human form. It does not require faith in the bible. There were christians before there was a bible, and that was partly Kierkegaard's point. He believed that the modern christian church and their doctrines to force man into submission were a perversion of the most basic principle of christianity, that divinity was within man through grace, humility and love.

    I personally believe it was his desire to seek a voluntary goodness within mankind and strive towards divinity in ourselves, without the need of oppressive, cruel and judgemental doctrines and absolutes handed down from religious leaders. Probably an impossible and naive task, given the nature of man, but I think the idea is very sympathetic.
     
  19. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    I think you're using some pretty broad brushstrokes--to describe modern readers, most thinking people, what's relevant to today's world, most writers' views, even philosophy itself. Or maybe you're just reflecting your world as the sum of your personal experience.
     
  20. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    Agree.
     
  21. DragonGrim

    DragonGrim New Member

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    ^I like this part. Aren’t we all guilty of that?:D

    I just don’t buy into existentialism as an actual philosophy. As far as I can tell, it can only be defined by certain philosophers who a man deemed “existential” in the following century. These philosophers did not share the same beliefs.
     
  22. Delphinus

    Delphinus New Member

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    Being and Nothingness explains everything about existentialism, if you're willing to burrow through hundreds of pages of immensely dense language. If not, as I said, Existentialism is a Humanism is sort of a field guide to existentialism. It certainly is a coherent philosophy; Sartre developed Kierkegaarde's theories into something new, mixed in a healthy dose of Nihilism, and created a new philosophy by some black magic. ;)
     
  23. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    Despite that a vast number of people in the western world live by it, for good and for bad, and whether they're aware of it or not. Everywhere you turn, you'll see people expressing their own personal idea of what gives life meaning, signal their individual uniqueness to the world in how they dress, live and act, and regard it almost an insult to be stuck in a labelled box.

    On the flip side you have the highest depression rates in recorded history...
     
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  24. DragonGrim

    DragonGrim New Member

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    If that’s what it boils down to, existentialism is nothing other philosophies have not covered. It appears to me to be more of a category rather than a philosophy.
     
  25. bluebell80

    bluebell80 New Member

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    A big portion of existentialism that most have avoided, is the fact that most existentialists were also atheists. There is no mystical beyond for humanity. There is no supernatural stuff. We are nothing more than animals surviving in a social setting. Nothing means anything except what we make of it.

    And somewhere in there, though at this point, after years of reading I don't remember who or where I read it, there is some determinism thrown in there. Not in the sense that there is destiny, or a grand design, but that each person in a sense dictates the outcome of other humans and that all of our futures eventually collide.

    The woman who is always five minutes late, on a random Tuesday morning is early. A man, having been fired from his job on Friday, has spent the last several days in a drunken stupor. He's now out of alcohol on Tuesday morning, and still drunk from the night before decides to go to the store to buy more. He crashes into the woman, who is normally five minutes late for everything and kills her.

    Did his actions, and his bosses actions, dictate her death? If..she had been five minutes late as she normally was, she would't have died, there might not have been an accident, and the man might have gotten his alcohol. So who determined what? IS it all chaos, as some existentialists believed, or is there some cosmic order to our behavior patterns determined by all past events and our basic DNA?

    There are a lot of areas that can be explored in philosophy, existentialism is just one facet, and is also greatly veried between the authors if it. Is everything simply chaos, but with some order to the chaos, yet no meaning to the order or the chaos as Sartre postulated in Beingness and Nothingness (yeah, it's a tough read, have a dictionary handy) or is there some determinism and no meaning in the order of our linear events?

    Basing fiction on existentialism is a good idea, but you have to understand the concept before you can create a fictional story based on it. Sartre's girlfriend, Simone de Beauvoir, also wrote some books, grounded in existentialism and centers around the female dynamic.

    Existentialism also was the central idea in most communist movements, as the Existentialists were also associated with the communist movement, and the idea of acheiving Utopia through Humanistic movements. However, humanism is not necessarily the same thing as Existentialism, there are some minor differences in points of view depending on who you read. And there is also Nihilism, as someone pointed out, another off-shoot of existentialism.
     

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